The Heart of the Matter
Part I Part II Part III Part IV

Dark Night of the Soul	Blinded By the Light
Eating Disorders	Yoga and Prayer (and sex)

Yoga Symposium.24.0
...journeys into the subjective realities of our own lives... (SuZie Coyote, 11/9/98 4:31:57 PM)

A topic for discussing the reality of our lives and how yoga is changing us, for the good (and the not so good).

Yoga Symposium.24.1
I probably need some Cheeze with this Whine... (SuZie Coyote, 11/9/98 4:32:47 PM)

I’ve been doing yoga for about five years now. Physically I am feeling much better, lighter and fitter, but emotionally, I’m becoming a wreck. As Yoga wakes me to the realities of the world, I am experiencing deep and troubling fears. I used to sleepwalk through life, paying attention to myself, my loved ones and our immediate needs. I was a happy idiot. I found happiness in the ephemeral joys of a satisfied need (or greed) and the endless distractions of the material world. I even had fun sometimes.

Now, at a macro-level I find myself almost in despair about the world situation – poisoned food, water, air, war, starvation, human degradation and the host of ills that has beset human-kind since recorded history. I see the pace of history heating up, speeding up, and the seams of our relatively comfortable lives (here in the US) about to burst. It seems like every day I hear of layoffs in the massive conglomerates in the thousands, while acts and threats of terrorism grow more threatening – both from within our borders and without. Our “heros” are a corrupt and cruel lot (violent sports figures, rapist businessmen-millionaires, politicians for hire). In this wealthy land of ours, 20% of us live below the poverty line (though the government tells us “be happy, only 4.5%” of us are unemployed). Our children wonder aimless and alone, MTV nurtured and sexualized by the media by the time they are six. Their parents work 50-60 hours a week or more (those who are lucky enough to have decent jobs) and worry what will happen to those jobs if a child gets ill and requires care.

At the mircro-level I am experiencing what I can only describe as terror. I know my line of work – defense contracting - is not “right-livelihood” but the realities of trying to change my occupation at 45 years old, especially in light of significant financial responsibility to my family is harsh. Every day I get more evidence of the essential corruption of the whole industry, yet I feel mired in quicksand – some of it my making, much of it outside my control. I am terrified I’ll be laid off within the next year, but equally terrified I will not. Worse, I am terrified I’ll be fired (and not even entitled to unemployment benefits) because I am in a situation where I have a 95% chance of failure, regardless how much hard work I do. My small and hopeful attempts to get out have not panned out, despite tremendous effort and investment. And, so what if I improve the conditions of my own life temporarily? We’re all in this together, and the collective karma will catch up with us all together. As I evaluate my life choices, I see a path strewn with missteps and foolish choices, but when I go back in my mind to decision points, I wonder. “How, considering where I was at the time and considering the legacy of the accident of my birth and place, could I have chosen differently?” Yet I now languish in the bed I have constructed for myself, and I wonder (fatalistically) is this is the only bed that was ever really within my grasp, despite my illusion of control over my life? And, why am I whining so much…others long to have what I have.

My ace in the hole has always been self-confidence and now, it’s withering. Is this the spiritual healing crisis of yoga? Must I live the Blasted Tower to grow? Must my family endure the gale force winds of my upheaval? After a life of happy dreams, I am having terrifying and prophetic dreams nearly every night – dreams of great violence and bloodshed, of abject loneliness, loss and confusion, dreams that are paranoid in scope. I wake up troubled and am afraid to go to sleep at night. Sometimes, for apparently no reason, I catch myself shaking, other times crying. I am constantly on edge, and am becoming withdrawn. (No, I’m not suicidal – my mind has never worked that way.)

Is this indicative of what the yogini must pass through? Must I lose my mind to find my heart? Is this a symptom of change or is this simply a mid-life crisis? (It’s not PMS, if you’re wondering.)

Yoga Symposium.24.2
earthworm (earthworm, 11/9/98 6:17:08 PM)

Interesting. I made very different choices. Why I made them isn't relevant. I also had to go through a huge amount of personal pain before it broke through to something more livable.

The mystics refer to the "Dark Night of the Soul." You've read about that, I'm sure. I recall that knowing about the Dark Night certainly didn't help me except in knowing that I was not the only person who'd had this experience, that it does come to an end, that it is, for good or bad, a part of the spiritual journey. Yet, that very experience, at least for me, was to feel utterly alone and powerless.

Ramanand summed it up this way. . . We are dropped into a huge expanse of water. In no direction can we see land and yet we must start swimming. Do or die (metaphorically and/or physically) We don't know if our efforts will get us to land. But we keep swimming. I don't think this hits it exactly on the mark but for me it shed some light on the abject lonliness and despair of the journey. This is so uplifting, I'm sure.

Paranoia was a part of my experience too. It didn't come out in dreams but in my choices. I cocooned. I rejected almost all mainstream choices with a vengeance. I did this with a sense of dread and resentment toward the mainstream. I was swimming but Iwas pissed and miserable. (That's the flip side of your former relatively carefree existence.)

You live in a city dominated by the military industry. I wonder if these dreams would continue if you slept for a few nights in a place absent of the militaristic archetype. Just an idea for an experiment. I think that organizations exist to assist people looking to transfer their skills to peacemaking industries. Swords into plowshares. I really know very little of this world and any specific advice I give would be naive.

Also John, my sweetie, recently found a website about sustainable consumption, about how individuals can takesteps to change their lifestyle. It's at http://www.newdream.org/, check out the newsletter articles in the main menu. There is a lot to explore in this site.

G.

Yoga Symposium.24.3
earthworm (earthworm, 11/10/98 5:34:43 AM)

Take two:

I am remembering reading that some people do their spiritual (Identity) crises in a slow burn and some blast their way through in a matter of weeks or months. I was in the first category. Your descriptions make it sound like you are in the second.

BTW, how does your relationship to Infinite Mind fit in? Are you able to get bigger and become an observer of the paranoia, etc.? Can you at times be the observer and observed simultaneously? And finally are you meditating at all?

It seems surrender to the will of Infinite Mind (practiced in meditation), radiating gratitude may allow you to move through this with more grace and less suffering. It's our identity with the misery that makes us suffer. "Get Bigger."

Feeling your pain, G.

Yoga Symposium.24.4
Suzanne (YogaSuz, 11/10/98 5:53:02 AM)

I was filled with empathy for you as I read your post. Although I like to think that there are many positive things going on in the world, I don't think it would be possible to argue you out of the place you are currently in emotionally.

At 45 you still have many years of professional life ahead of you, so please don't consider it too late to change. If you feel strongly that your career has been the wrong path, you must consider that you will have to remain on this path for another 15 years or so if you choose to ignore your concerns.

To be realistic, though, it is probably not possible for you to make a career change immediately. However, if you make a plan for changing your career you might start to feel more in control. Hopefully then you will not be focused so much on other things out of your control. For example, you could start taking classes at a college, working toward a degree that will take you into a new field. Or you could see a career counselor and find out how you can use your existing skills to get a job in a new industry. Surely the skills you've developed as a military contractor can be applied to a new arena.

If you are thinking of making a career change, I found the exercises in What Color is Your Parachute to be helpful in seeing how my skills could apply to many different careers.

Best luck to you. I think yoga teaches us to trust our instincts, so this must be a positive change even if it is emotionally disturbing at present.

Peace be with you,
Suzanne

Yoga Symposium.24.5
earthworm (earthworm, 11/10/98 7:47:27 AM)

Take three:

Just read this from Joel Kramer:

"Mental edges are similar to physical edges in that they are marked by resistance to movement and opening. In the mind, fear is the indicator of resistance as pain is in the body. Fear circumscribes the structure of personality or ego. The ways you think about yourself or the world are the basic building blocks of personality and they are very rigid. When these structures are challenged, fear arises. Fear often expresses itself through attack and defense as a means of alleviating the pain that fear brings. Attack and defense are a way of shoring up (protecting) the challenged structure and burying fear in what is called the unconscious, giving you the illusion of not being afraid. Fear is a great teacher since it is a key to finding out the nature, depth, and degree of your attachment to various thought structures."

"...ask and it shall be given to you" (NT)

Gena

Yoga Symposium.24.6
Thanks for the help... (SuZie Coyote, 11/10/98 8:22:55 AM)

Gena, SuZanne....thanks. Wow, the past several days have been black ones! Thanks for the perspective. I, too read the Kramer piece and am trying to "get" the change that the fear is signifying.

My mother is slowly dying from her habits and her fears. She just had another round of angioplasty procedures, managing to say off cigarettes two whole days after she left the hospital. She stays in her tiny apartment and goes out occasionally to buy fresh food (only when she can't talk others into going for her.) She won't even leave her apartment to go to my brother's house for a dinner (and she likes both my brother and his wife.)

She's not elderly - she's only 64. But she's been acting elderly for the past 10 years. After finally escaping an alcoholic and gamble-aholic husband (he died years ago) and the care and feeding of five children (in poverty), I'd have thought she'd finally be able to enjoy life a little. All she wants to do is hide. It's not that she misses my father - he was a pain in the ass and she stayed only because of her strong Christian perspective (or maybe it was that fear thing).

The questions is (and it's a rhetorical one, I know), "How does one dealt with the often paralyzing fears we confront?" Most people, I guess, do not.

"Failure" has always been my big fear...that and a return to the poverty of my youth (and/or the plunging of my children into the kind of poverty I experienced.) It's these fears that prevent me from just quitting my job, and finding another.

Thanks again for the kind words. It's nice to reach out and get loving and thoughtful responses in return.

SuZett

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Yoga Symposium.24.7
Devin McGuire (gardenweasel, 11/10/98 10:24:10 AM)

Dear SuZie, Your words emphatically touch my heart. It's been said that Yoga is like being in a house completely dark inside because the windows are so covered over with grime and debris. As we then practice yoga, we begin to clear away some of this grime and the light comes in at first dimly. We then tend to look around and see all that needs be done in the house and can become easily overwhelmed, forgetting about the task of first cleaning the windows, allowing the Loving Light of Truth to first fill the house. In this,a quiet joy pervades and lifts us up, merrily accomplishing the other tasks of housekeeping.

Well, I guess that was some kindofa stream of consciousness typing stuff. Yet there is more I want to convey and so I make now a prayer that it come from guidance within.

The outer world is just that, the outer world. It is constantly changing. And yet, there are those who've become aware of an inner world in which the outer world is but a reflection. And so, discovering that as one's inner world changes, so do the perceptions of ones outer world. It is here in the inner world, in our hearts, where true change is wrought. And as we cultivate our inner awareness with thouhgts of light and love,peace and truth, so our outer world reflects such. 'I, if I be lifted up, lift the whole world up with me.

All asanas lead toward sitting comfortably, that we may contemplate 'who am I?' In what do I live and move and have my being? The question begets the quest. What is the question? Choose it with diligent discernment. It is written in our inward parts. Our heart will lead us into the unchanging Light of Love. Let seeking begin and end in the heart, breath will lead the way, just a little bit each and every day begins the attunement to the inner worlds of LIGHT. Shine on, Sister.

Yoga Symposium.24.9
Blinded by the light.... (SuZie Coyote, 11/10/98 1:29:37 PM)

Thanks, Devin, I really like your metaphor of the dirty windows. You are right on.

When I was young I was very, very nearsighted (still am, only worse - now I wear contact lenses). In the daily struggle to get by, no one ever noticed I couldn’t see very well. In about 7th grade, the schools began to screen us for eyesight and sent letters to my parents exhorting them to do something about getting me glasses. We didn't have any insurance, so it was a big expense for me to go to an eye doctor and buy glasses. But by eight-grade my parents finally woke up to the fact I badly needed glasses and they couldn't avoid the issue any further. I couldn't see the chalkboard and so was doing poorly in my classes, especially math. My folks scraped together the money and I walked several blocks to the eye doctor for my examination and then back a week later for the glasses (it took a while in those days.) My parents were really angry that the glasses cost so much ($100, which was a lot at the time.) I picked the ugliest glasses I could find, figuring, wrongly, they'd be the cheapest. It didn't occur to me at the time that the price would have been less had they involved themselves in the process and gone with me to the eye doctor and selecting the frames. 

I remember coming home the first day with my glasses on. It was horrible! I saw, for the first time, how really dirty and shabby my surroundings were. It was as if I could see every tiny speck of dirt, every spot and stain on the rugs and each curling paint chip on the walls, the smudged glasses, the grime on the dishes. I could see the nicotine stains on my parents fingers, the pores on my mother’s face and the lines on  my father’s. I don’t EVEN want to remember the bathroom!

I couldn't take it and took to leaving my glasses off at home. Then, because the glasses were so ugly, I took to taking them off a school when I absolutely didn't need them. I guess "not seeing" became a habit into which I fell, headlong. In retrospect, my extreme shyness at the time, my introversion and introspective nature probably resulted from the "not seeing."

I lost the glasses, of course, within six months, because I was always taking them off. There was no money for another pair, so I learned to get by, always sitting at the front of the class. I could usually, but not always, make out what was going on! I didn't get another pair of glasses until I joined the Air Force when I was 18. They gave me two pairs of black-horn rimmed glasses. They also gave me a small salary, so I was able to buy a decent pair of stylish glasses.

Your metaphor, Devin, of the dirty windows, instantly led me to remember my non-seeing youth and to the insights about my personality. Thank you. Sometimes, even if the windows are clean, there is fear at looking out because what's there is not always pretty.

Bob studies history and knows it better than anyone else I know. He often (daily) shares his observations and knowledge about the predictable patterns of history, especially with regards to what is going on today. As a result, he keeps the windows around our place sparkling clear and, to be honest, I find it sometimes difficult to live with such clarity.

SuZ

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Yoga Symposium.24.10
katherine riley (spiderr, 11/11/98 2:18:07 PM)

Reading your contributions to this topic really intrigued me. For the past few months I've been steadily practicing yoga, and these last 5 weeks or so have been a tremendous upheaval. I'm a recovering bulimic, and I feel like I have had a few of those dark nights of the soul. I also like the image of cleaning the windows in the house and suddenly seeing what's really there. Yoga has helped me clean some of my windows and what's out there - in this case, a mirror that reflects my true self - knocked me right on my rear end. In a good way, I'm shedding a lot of tears lately and thinking and thinking and thinking - both of which, combined with yoga, continue to clean those windows.

I, too, have many fears about this day and age - it's helpful to know that I'm not alone in those.

Later, and Namaste...
-Katherine

Yoga Symposium.24.11
Hello, Katherine (SuZie Coyote, 11/11/98 6:50:57 PM)

Thanks for your contribution. What you said confirms what I'm coming to understand at a deep level. Everything that has happened to me and troubled me is in the hearts and minds of others as well. The "American Way" so focuses on independence and flying solo that it isolates us and we begin to think we're somehow unique in our pain. Those who control our society and our religions want us to stay isolated and asleep. There are vested interests in having the rank and file believe their problems are only personal (and not societal or political).

I was anorexic and bulemic for 17 years. I stopped the behavior about six months before I started yoga (close to five years ago), which has helped keep me on the straight and narrow. My epiphany came when a healing woman did a "soul retrieval" on me. Even to this day, I'm not convinced she's wasn't a charlatan, but something in the session (lots of drum banging, hoo-ha, and psychobabble) made me get up and say, "I'm done with this addiction." I haven't had an episode since then, nor even any real desire for one.

I think bulemics are the perfect consumer culture creatures. We consume and consume and throw up so we can consume some more. We do what the advertisements, the culture tells us to do, better than anyone else - after all a person can only eat so much! And, we manage, while consuming, to do the other thing that culture says to do, which is stay slender. Too clever for our own good, I suppose.

Namaste
SuZett

Yoga Symposium.24.12
earthworm (earthworm, 11/12/98 6:32:45 AM)

Underneath the societal issues, aren't bulemia and anorexia learned attempts at control in situations where the sufferer feels they have no control?

G.

Yoga Symposium.24.13
(SuZie Coyote, 11/12/98 9:31:51 AM)

The latest psycho-think is that bulemia is linked to a type of development disorder - bulemics are people who were not able to develop individuated personalities at important points in their lives.

In other words, bulemics never developed a strong sense of self as we were growing up. So instead of acting from internal direction (which we can't perceive), we act according to the impulses and dictates of family, culture, and media

Reasons given for this range from the usual family dysfunction coupled with abuse, or loving, but overbearing parents, to simply facets of individual nature. (some bulemics are just born weak-willed.) Sometimes bulemics come from families that are "nice" and no one from the outside would see dysfunction. Sometimes the families ARE nice, and the bulemic reaction is to school or social environments, rather than familial ones. At the core, most destructive addictions are indeed around control issues.

Back to the healing woman, Quenda, (who considers herself a shaman) and the "soul retrieval." Her metaphor was that when overwhelming things happen to us, pieces of our souls "go off and hide", then stay lost. (This is perhaps a metaphorical way of saying we don’t develop our personalities fully.) She also believes that guardian spirits may take a piece of one's soul to place in safekeeping until the environment is right for return. The third way a piece of soul can be lost, according to Quenda, is if some evil person or being takes it. (From the shaman's perspective, this last is the toughest situation, because she would have to do battle to get the piece back.)

In my particular case, there were two pieces she said she was able to retrieve - the first piece left when my step-father began beating me at about 2 years old. The second was a piece a guardian angle took for safe keeping when I was critically ill as a child. During our sessions I worked with Quenda to help her understand my life. I didn’t use the healing sessions as a test for Quenda’s authenticity, believing rather that since I was paying money to get better I should cooperate as much I could. So, did she “see” these things in my past, or surmise them from our conversation? Does it matter?

When an adult male who’s 6’3”, starts beating on a child when she’s two, something inside is going to shut down – something “hides.” And, when a child, who already has personality difficulties, is struck with a life-threatening illness and placed in a bewildering hospital, it must seem as if guardian spirits are protecting her until she gets better.

The endless bingeing and purging of bulemia is symptomatic of trying to fill the empty space left when
important pieces of ourselves either depart or refuse to grow. For me, the key to recovery was (and still is) about identifying “what’s missing” (a difficult question, indeed!) and set about the reclamation effort.

SuZ

Yoga Symposium.24.14
katherine riley (spiderr, 11/12/98 9:58:19 AM)

for me, too, it's like something was lost and I don't know exactly what or where or when. I'm going to therapy with a woman who specializes and she asks questions and listens as I try to figure it all out...for me, who comes from one of those "nice" families, there is no readily identifiable part of my life that explains my bulimia. we have talked about the fact that i was a terribly shy child (although once i warmed up to you i was full of love and laughter and jokes, etc...i'm still the same way). . . maybe the eating disorder was a way to compensate for the lack of control that I felt when I started to gain people's attention. In middle and high school I was a smart young lady, I found acting, which I was very good at, and flourished in that...who knows. I DO know that in some way that's hard to admit, it is about control. But it grows and changes and you suppress it more and more until you're just numb.

At any rate - I think it's very cool that yoga is as therapeutic for you, SuZ, as it has been for me. No urges, just peace these days. And that is a very welcome thing. Have a good day, everybody.

-Katherine-

Yoga Symposium.24.15
earthworm (earthworm, 11/12/98 11:28:23 AM)

Have either of you worked with giving the "dis-ease" a "voice" and listened to what it has to say?

I have found that breathing into the pain, disease, or disfunction, giving it "life," acknowledging it's existence fully and accepting what it has to offer me (...becoming friends with it...) has been the only way to ultimately move beyond it. I don't start with the idea of moving beyond it but with acceptance and beginner's mind. "What can I learn from you?" "What do you want/need to tell me?"

Suppression has never worked for me. I makes sense that it (the dis-ease) wouldn't exist if it didn't have something to tell you.

This culture has a fix-it mentality which I think has led psychiatry/therapy into the same dead-end that exists for allopathic medicine. If it's broken, fix-it - if it's not broken - don't fix it. The focus on what is broken is too narrow (the body and the brain) and the intent is focused on outcome rather that inquiry and understanding. We all harbor this mentality (conditioning) to various degrees. I think Joel has got a piece of it right when he talks about striving and ambition. (Joel: A NEW LOOK AT YOGA: Playing the Edge of  Mind and Body)

Fixing brokenness is just another form of ambition. Another feather for our hat. I notice how hard it is to fix illnesses that at their core have a spiritual/psychic message for us. (my scoliosis for example) These things just don't want to go away. Even when we think we've finally "figured that one out," it hangs over us like a raincloud waiting to rain on our parade!

I also notice in myself and others how hard it is to let go of our "brokenness" (I don't like using that word). We hang on to it. We don't want to let it go. I wonder if letting go creates a void and are we terrified of the unfamiliar? Without a guiding principle, no matter how disfunctional it is, we feel lost. That is why what Erich said really helped me, (paraphrase) "Fear happens where ego is weakest and is also the point where Clarity can most easily flow in." (Perhaps this is what Christian existentialist Soren Kierkegaard was after when he wrote about the "leap of faith")

If I trust that what I could be is bigger than my fear. Then I present myself with an opportunity for change that no longer has to be about fear but can be perceived as excitement or positive anticipation (I love Lou's post over in Asanas <15.143> about excitement and fear.)

You are both very courageous.

G.
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Yoga Symposium.24.16
Frank (Frank40, 11/16/98 8:48:47 AM)

Hi all,

Thanks for all the wonderful posts. I have been doing yoga now for only about 5 months, so I am new at the process. But, I have been working one-on -one with a great teacher, and I have seen many small and larger changes in my life. In addition to the notable physical benefits-- my body just seems to "work" better and "feels" better. The upper and lower parts of my body seem to be more connected, more unified. I sleep more restfully, eat more healthily, think more clearly (well, sometimes!?). I am one of those persons who tries to pray regularly, and believe me, this has its own struggles, yoga seems to center me in meditation, that I can "move into" prayer more easily, more effortlessly. One thing I have noticed for sure: the bodies own sexual rhythms seem to be at "fever pitch" since starting with yoga-- I have yet to decide whether this is good or bad!? Finally, I have begun to notice that I "react less" to situations outside of myself, situations that in the past seemed to cause anxiety or a sense of feeling upset. A few of you mentioned a calm confidence-- I notice something like this but I'm not sure exactly where this leads?

Thanks and keep doing yoga!

Namaste all!
Frank

Yoga Symposium.24.17
SuZett Estell (SuZie Coyote, 11/16/98 2:31:50 PM)

Frank,

I've noticed similar benefits from yoga, including the sexual charge. I also find that any sexual issues from the past start surfacing as well. I think its related to the opening of the sacrum and abdominal areas and the movement of kundalini energy through the base chakra.

For me, the calming influence means I react less to external events and act more consistently from my center.

As for prayer, I'm not an adherent of the idea that we can successfully lobby God for boons and services. Nor do I believe God is so shallow a being to want endless hosannas from us. So I don't pray. Instead, I tend to think of quieting myself so I can hear the internal voice of God as it tries to steer me from my destructive habits and conditioned ways, towards more loving and useful techniques for interacting with the world. In this regard, yoga is perfect.

SuZ

Yoga Symposium.24.18
Suzanne  (YogaSuz, 11/17/98 5:53:11 AM)

Interesting that you bring up the subject of prayer. I didn't grow up very religiously. I never heard my parents speak of praying or know anyone who prayed regularly, but I have found that as my yoga practice deepens I've begun to pray as inspired.

Generally this takes the form of asking God to open me up to receive my own inner wisdom. I've found it very helpful. When I pray I feel the same centering, peaceful quality that I have after practicing yoga.

This summer we had my husband's three nieces for an extended visit. They are not well cared for, so it was emotionally difficult to send them back home (clear across the country). Since their return, we get very little information about them. Their mother won't talk to us and their grandmother (my husband's mom) mainly covers up for her daughter. We don't believe her assurances that, "everything's fine."

Perhaps out of desperation, but I like to think out of great concern, I've prayed for the girls. I prayed that they will be cared for or that events will turn so that we can get custody of them. Recently I felt my prayers were answered when the girls' mother gave permission to her social worker for him to give us an update on the girls. We trust him and finally are assured that things
are improving for the girls. They are getting to school every day and have decent clothes. I continue to pray that things improve for them.

I wonder what is the proper motivation for prayer. I don't think it's appropriate to ask God for things for myself ("a new car, please"), but I feel comfortable asking for guidance in my relationships with others and in seeking divine protection for others.

Do you think God (the divine within us all) can react to my individual will? When I seek divine assistance on
something I can't control (like the girl's situation), is it just a way of trying to gain control? I like to think that sincere concern and an openness to let God choose the best course counteracts the selfishness of the need for comfort. For example, it would be most reassuring to me if my husband and I were to receive custody of his nieces; however, I accept the answer I've received to my prayers as being the right course for the girls. That is, I haven't received as much comfort as I would like, but the girls have received what they need to thrive.

I'm interested in hearing other opinions on this subject and about how others pray. Frank, do you pray daily? Do you try to pray for a set amount of time? What things do you pray about? Do you feel that your prayers are answered or is prayer a form of meditation?

I used to think that prayer was a form of meditation, but experiences recently make me think that I have some ability to influence the outcome of events. Logically this seems impossible, but I am learning to trust my inner wisdom on the subject.

Suzanne

Yoga Symposium.24.20
Katherine Riley (spiderr, 11/18/98 7:33:50 AM)

I find myself praying more these days, and it comes easily, as (I think) SuZett said. When I go walking in the late afternoon as I sometimes do, I just relax into the autumn leaves and late afternoon sun and there I always feel the presence of God. My grandmother always taught us to look at nature, meditate on "what your Father had done". Lately, I completely understand what she was saying. Sometimes when I'm walking, I just breathe in and out, in and out, and smile at the beauty that is around us every moment of the day. And I thank that greater power for reminding me of Its presence. When I actually find myself talking to God these days, I pray for others, or for peace of mind; whereas I used to ask for things to go a certain way. Often I just spend a few minutes on a "Grateful Journal" (which is something that Oprah Winfrey suggested and which my roomates and I have taken up), whether I actually write them down or not, I think of 5-10 things which I am grateful for and reflect on them. They range from being grateful for knowing my grandparents, to sharing a smile with someone on the street to having a big-bundle-of-love (our puppy, T.J.) to keep crazy college life in perspective.

That's how I pray these days, anyway.

Namaste, Katherine

The following posts on Yoga and Prayer are from the Asana Topic (15)

Yoga Symposium.15.193
Frank (Frank40, 2/14/99 6:41:52 AM)

Hi all,

Thank you all for this wonderful dialogue. So great to read and reflect upon the many insights shared. I'm returning after some time following a typically hectic start to the second semester, and now, already buried in blue books-- the problem teaching a freshman course-- they usually need a little quiz early in the semester! Can I e-mail any of you some bluebooks?

I especially loved reading the many posts about yoga asana, meditation, and spirituality. I am a "practicing Christian" of the Roman Catholic variety and my experience so far has been (perhaps I am stating the obvious here) that regular yoga practice seems to prepare me for prayer...or at least seems to make me more attentive and honest about my attempts at Christian prayer. It seems that yoga brings me a certain depth and centeredness to the starting off point...if that makes any sense? I am one of those who prays regularly first thing in the morning....very early...before the sun comes up....when it is so wonderfully quiet and peaceful...I think the great Mexican author Carlos Fuentes once said that writing and working in the early morning was like taking the sweet cream off the top of the day....and yoga seems to make the prayer flow easier. And more important, I now experience prayer as being more faithful, honest, and true. I have noticed this shift since I began the practice of yoga. I might add that my aging body seems to "do yoga" better in the late afternoon. Stillness in the morning seems to be my preference!

An additional insight I have come to this year-- for centuries Christianity has struggled in many ways with well known problematic views of "the body" perhaps thanks to St. Augustine and his "Confessions" and for other complex reasons. That old mind/spirit-body dualism which is a tension throughout western thought! I, perhaps like a kid with a new toy, continue to discover in new ways the deep sacred respect that yoga affords to the body. Often after a yoga session I feel as if I have been praying from head to toe, and the consolation is almost indescribable. I continue to sense that yoga brings me a sense of "balance" to the sometimes negative perceptions that my own religious tradition has to understanding the relationship between body and spirit. I speak out of my own experience here....but in some circles Catholicism still wrestles with the questions about the "goodness" of the body. I imagine that this positive realization will grow....at least I hope so.

Wishes to you all!

Frank

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Body Prayer (Shakti Das, 2/14/99 9:35:04 AM)

Thanks for sharing that beautiful post Frank. Growing up in the west, we all know of the negative body/nature view that is prevalent, but i agree that it doesn't have to be that way. Have you heard of Matthew Fox's Creation Spirituality? He is trying to work within the Church to create a more body positive/nature positive attitude? I also have met some "mature" Catholic priests who did yoga.

donny

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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann, 2/14/99 1:42:15 PM)

I'd like to thank you also, Frank, for sharing. I like what you said. It confirms my conviction that though yoga is not a religion it does induce religious feeling. It does this by helping one experience the reality of Now, and that's truly mysterious and mind-blowing every time!

My sense is that there is only one thing going on: God being All. And therefore, the body is not merely a temporary host or habitation for the soul, but is part of God's infinite Self-expression. To think of it as anything less is not healthy. That's why after a good yoga session you feel like you've been "praying from head to toe."

Namaste to you and everyone here.

With love and pranams,
Erich

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So, what is Prayer? (Yoga-Aba, 2/17/99 11:10:11 AM)

Donny,

I'm beginning to get a sense of why prayer, and the model of Providence that it assumes, has become problematic to me. If G-d's name really is so ineffable that the only true experience of G-d is as you describe it, just listening to what's there when all the chatter is gone, what is prayer? Mightn't prayer just be part of the chatter? And perhaps that which one perceives in complete silence is all there is to Providence.

Let me put it this way: Buddhism, it seems to me, kind of has its own, albeit sophisticated, version of reward and punishment. The suffering of the innocent can be explained by working out karma from past lives. In all this discussion of Patanjali, you've mentioned nothing similar. Is there some kind of attempt to reconcile The All with the suffering of the innocent?

Regards,
Phil

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Prayer and Changing Direction (Karma) (Shakti Das, 2/17/99 3:02:51 PM)

Excellent discussion! Yes, they are linked. We use prayer or mantra -- to create the intention and stage for the dialogue. If over used (and many do) then it just adds to the chatter (we are talking too much and not listening).

G-d of course does not talk in English and if we were to hear her only in Greek, Sanskrit, Hebrew, or Chinese we probably would be filtering a lot. Prayer can be interactive and transformative, but for it to be effective we have to go beyond it -- to the unity in diversity -- and/or the diversity in the unity-- the place of true Integrity where both are true which is a place beyond separateness i.e., words.

If the prayer, mantra, visualization or "spiritual practice does this (by calming the mind or helping us to focus our intent and direct the energies of transformation) than it is "functional"; otherwise I suspect that it may be part of what we must let go of.

It's easy to get caught up on form and not see more deeply as to what is behind it -- from which it cam and to which it is going which leads us to the idea of karma (another subject?).

WE ALL WERE BORN INTO INNOCENCE -- into purity by creation as part of that creation -- part of that GREAT DYNAMIC AND INTELLIGENT PROCESS. The only suffering is caused by ignorance -- by our forgetfulness of who we are -- by the corruption of the "citta" or its modifications where Reality is obscured (samskaras appear) and this is what Patanjali considers the seeds of dukha (or pain).

The suffering of the innocent is a terribly disempowering concept, just as "bad" as the idea of an unjust God. All we need to do is wake up, and if we do not, we will stumble, trip, or suffer. This is what Buddha says and this is also what Patanjali says. To place an authority figure outside of ourselves to praise or blame -- who is in control of all of this is to create separation, spiritual alienation, duality and a self defeating situation whereas the point of even Judeo-Christian thought is: TO KNOW AND LOVE GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND ALL "THY" SOUL or something to that effect? Anything else is a corruption, sin, estrangement, Diaspora, separation, and a "falling away".

In other words there may be different assumptions taken historically in the West versus the East, but if we scrutinize or meditate on it, we can understand that the aspiration and driving Spirit and/or spiritual goal was once the same in both regions. It is only the institutionalized belief systems, their conditioning, and cultural structures which dictate manmade belief systems which have reinforced these "apparent filters" and barriers that you and I can call Eastern and Western, but which Patanjali calls bondage.

I see that you are sincerely struggling with these "culturally" inherited dialogues, but believe me, (:-) they are not G-d's, but man's.

Consider the possibilities and options -- here.... Breathe into it and see what comes up. See where that leads. Is it a book that leads or do we follow the Living Path?

love
donny

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Frank Hannafey (Frank40, 2/18/99 6:32:57 PM)

Hi all,

Belated thanks for your recent posts! Classes speed along here and it's the first time I have visited since the weekend. I am really enjoying this conversation.

Erich, thank you, yes, the Now is a very helpful way to look at the experience. Your wonderful description of the ever present creative connectedness of the Now to the human body is beautiful. I really should try to read more about how yoga traditions view the Now. I sense it is/can be compatible with many other views of the divine-- in Christianity God is seen as eternal, immutable, etc. but always ever present. Thanks very much for sharing that with us.

Donny, yes, I have heard of Matthew Fox's work but I have not read very much of it. I spent some time in Berkeley and he was in the area and his books were very popular there. I have read a few of his articles. But I do read some of the Christian mystics though....like St. Ignatius Loyola and St. John of the Cross. I bet they would be into yoga if they lived in our time!

Yoga helped me catch my breath (almost literally) after a wild day...ever have fun and a sense of newness with the child's pose? For some reason, that really worked for me today. It seems to be a great pose when you are really tired and weary. And a big part of it I think was the act of kneeling...a gesture that seems to so much like prayer! I was so tempted to nap instead..but a very slow and gentle practice turned the entire day around and brought welcome peace to the rest of the day. Yes, I guess I must still be in beginner's mind!

Namaste!
Frank

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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann, 2/19/99 12:33:41 AM)

Suzanne,

I loved these two lines in your post to Frank: "I've never learned how to pray, so I just do it the way I want to and don't try to follow a specific format. On the other hand, I only do it when inspired..."

That's exactly what I do. I've found that one learns to meditate/pray/commune by doing it, by being willing to not know exactly what you are supposed to be doing when you mediate and simply going in there and letting the meditation teach you. Personally, I've refrained from scheduling it in, though I am not "against" doing that because a disciplined meditation practice can be very helpful in loosening the grip of one's conditioning. Instead, I've increased my ongoing inner listening; you know, sensing deeper into what one's deepest feelings really are on an ongoing basis throughout the day. When I do this I find myself WANTING to meditate more frequently, sometimes for short durations of time, sometimes longer. But I only sit down to meditate when I feel like it, and if I don't feel like meditating, then, instead, I do whatever it is I actually feel like doing (!) -- whatever that is.

Meditation is an incredible topic. One of the big discoveries is that the Silence isn't silent, empty, vacuous, or void-like. The Silence is full-on universal participation and full of Knowing. The Emptiness is supremely Full. And you find this out when one's mind becomes quiet and shuts up for a few moments. . . and stays with one's actual now-experience. It's like what happens in Savasana. When you relax your body by letting go of tension, it's not that your body disappears and nothing is left. Instead, when you let go of the tension, the constricted sense of Self, what's left is the energetically clear experience of the Presence that you are. And the same thing mentally: When you let go of the tensions and worries in your mind and stop thinking for a few moments... and pay attention instead to what you find yourself experiencing when this is happening ... it's not that you disappear, you become more present! And the more present you are, the more meaningful your presence will be both for yourself and others.

Thank you for being here.

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You Know It By This (tympanachus cupido, 2/19/99 1:52:39 PM)

"Wake up & listen to the music of IM."  It's always there - queued up in the jukebox of the mind.
The signal to noise ratio is up to us.

Thanks for the reminder, Erich.

 

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