ujjayi breathing, lines of energy, and playing the edge. Recall Erich's advice on getting started: "Always start your yoga practice sitting quietly. These first few minutes provide an interval in which to let go of your usual daily concerns, gather your energy, become centered, and affirm your motivation to practice with one-pointed enthusiasm. During this quiet time be aware of any specific poses you feel like doing. These will come to mind spontaneously, much like the way specific foods come to mind when you think about what to eat. Pay attention to these subtle requests for they will clarify the content of your practice." This is the topic to ask questions, make comments or respond to questions about the asanas. Think of this topic as a left brain component of your yoga practice. Writing about yoga will make yoga that much more clear and meaningful to you. Recall Erich's observations on his own effort to "get it written down:" "I thoroughly enjoyed writing Yoga: The Spirit and Practice of Moving Into Stillness. It took a long time, over ten years, but I loved every single difficult, simple, frustrating, flowing moment of it. It was a tremendous learning experience for me. I thought I knew what I was going to write about when I began. But the more I wrote, the more I learned. And the more I learned, the more I changed my mind, until, finally clarity emerged. Foremost of these learnings was the realization that Knowing happens, that spontaneous intuitive revelation flows into your mind, when you pay attention inwardly, are receptive, and listen. The theme or technique of yoga, therefore, and indeed the theme of the book, is to move into stillness in order to be guided from within, and then to be brave enough, and willing, to do as the within is prompting you to do - even when you cannot explain your behavior to yourself or others. In this way you will be an inspired, inspiring, and meaningful presence." Tell us of your trials and triumphs with the asanas and the routines you use. Do you use music? Does the concept of "playing your edges" help you make the most of your practice and help you to progress? Have you been able to seamlessly integrate your breathing into your performance of the poses? Does the "lines of energy" concept bring you a deeper understanding of the poses? When do you practice? Do you set aside time for yoga when you travel? What is your favorite routine? Does this set of asanas usually come to mind as you sit quietly to begin your practice? How do you feel when you miss a practice or when you take the weekly rest day?
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Web Site Links for the Asanas (crotalus,
6/4/98 11:44:23 AM)
Note that this is the topic in which to discuss Lines Of Energy and Playing The Edge; ujjayi breathing has its own topic <Yoga Conference.6>. Here are the links to the pertinent web page (Moving
Into Stillness
) topics for asana practice. Asana Fundamentals The Wind Through The Instrument The Wind Through The Instrument - How To Do It Lines Of Energy Playing The Edge A Few Asanas - Intro & Cat Pose A Few Asanas - Mountain Pose A Few Asanas - Standing Forward Fold A Few Asanas - Standing Side Stretch A Few Asanas - Dog Pose A Few Asanas - Spread Leg Forward Fold A Few Asanas - Bridge Pose A Few Asanas - Reclining Leg Stretch A Few Asanas - Locust Pose A Few Asanas - Sage Twist A Few Asanas - Hero Pose A Few Asanas - Shoulder Stretches A Few Asanas - Lotus
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Paul Falkenstein (PaulFalk,
6/8/98 6:34:00 AM)
Ahhhh, the asana practice is like the desert after a great meal. I have had the opportunity to take classes and be with Erich on many occassions and he is the one that truly introduced the concept of where the asanas can take you, energetically and emotionally. In my daily practice here on the east coast, I take classes at Jivamukti Yoga where music and sprituality are intertwined. For me, now, with Erich's guidance and patience in teaching me the "lines of energy" and meditation, combined with Jivamukti spirituality and Yoga philosophy, I feel my asana practice has exploded. I now do an asana class twice a day and meditate for at least 45 minutes. And although I have a deep Bhakti Yoga love, the asana practice for me is a moving meditation. One thing that truly helped my asana practice was Satsang. Being in the presence of like minded individuals seeking truth has helped open the mind and heart. Once you open your mind and heart then your body begins to open. You feel more at ease playing the comfortable edge. Search out Satsang and make it a part of your daily Yoga practice. Paul Falkenstein
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SuZett Estell (SuZie Coyote,
6/8/98 8:22:33 AM)
(Erased by SuZie Coyote at Jun 8 1998 8:24AM)
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SuZett Estell (SuZie Coyote,
6/8/98 8:23:17 AM)
(Erased by SuZie Coyote at Jun 8 1998 8:23AM)
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SuZett Estell (SuZie Coyote,
6/8/98 8:25:54 AM)
Hello All: I erased the last couple of posts as they somehow became garbled. My computer has been acting odd all morning. Here's an improved version. Paul, Thanks for contributing, Paul. I am looking forward to meeting and learning from Erich (this coming weekend and all of next week). One of my longer-term goals is to eventually get to two hours of Yoga a day. Right now I get one hour, about 4-5 days a week. I have a more-than full time job and a family (two adolescent children). I'm not great at getting up before 6:30, but I know the only way that additional hour will be available is to get up at around 5:00 (ugh). In my youth, I spent many years getting up at that awful time (I was in the Air Force). Now, my body seems to be in rebellion, even though I really enjoy watching the sunrise. Could you enlighten me about Jivamukti Yoga? Welcome to the group, Paul. All I know about it is the pictures I've seen in Yoga journal of people in really convoluted postures! Welcome to the group, Paul. SuZett
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SuZett Estell (SuZie Coyote,
6/8/98 8:32:52 AM)
Well, it happened again. Somehow or another, my post got butchered in the last paragraph. Well, there are worse things than a double welcome, I guess! SuZ
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Paul Falkenstein (PaulFalk,
6/8/98 1:52:53 PM)
Suzie, Thanks for the dialogue. Although I consider Erich my main teacher, living in Philadelphia is not conducive to studying with him daily!!! My wife Kirin and I run the Yoga program here just outside of Philadelphia. We met Erich about three years ago as I described and he has been a wonderful friend ever since. We hosted him at our Yoga studio for a Teacher Training course last year. Being away from my teacher is hard but we communicate often. In his absence I have started taking classes at Jivamukti in New York City. It is an Ashtanga style Yoga that is very steeped in spirituality and yoga philosophy. The word Jivan Mukti in Sanskrit means "Liberation from Separation" and is symbolic for freeing our mind-stuff and offering everything up to God. I, too, still work full-time and have 3 daughters ages 10,7, and 6. Yes, 5 am comes a little early for me too benefits are truly outstanding. Now, 2 practices a day may be overload but I find it gives me the proper balance to allow me to continue on my Yoga Path. In the meantime, Kirin and I will be visiting Erich in two weeks. We can't wait to see Guruji and his wonderful smile and big laugh. Hoep you have fun in Sun Valley. If it is similar to what he did for us......it is WONDERFUL. Om Shanti Paul Falkenstein
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Satsang (crotalus,
6/8/98 4:43:33 PM)
>>Search out Satsang and make it a part of your daily Yoga practice.<< Erich, SuZ and I are hoping this conferencing community will prove to be an analogue of Satsang. Active posters like you, Paul, are the key to this goal. Thanks so much for taking the precious time to share yourself and your yoga knowledge here. Open up a topic if you see ground that needs to be covered. Jivamukti seems a likely candidate. When I get our companion site/conference together (The Holistic Path), I'll be soliciting guest articles. I suspect you might have more than a thing or two to contribute - kindly think on it if you would be interested (preparing a meditation article for instance). Have a look at The
Spiritual Branch
to see if The Holistic Path would be a place in which you'd be comfortable writing and sharing your perspective.
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Paul Falkenstein (PaulFalk,
6/10/98 7:03:40 AM)
Bob & Suzzette, Thanks for your kind words and I look forward to our continued dialogue. I am still very much a beginner, but would love to participate and write anything that may be of value to those on the same path. Please let's continue to talk about The Spiritual Branch and Holistic Path. I was priveledged to take private Darshan with Swami Satchidananda and Bhagavan Das on numerous occassions. As a westerner growing up, thoughts of sitting in the presence of some man from India and listening, understanding, and more importantly LIVING his words was not even in my wildest imagination. Bob, you are right. This forum is a great way to bring Satsang to peopl who can not find a more suitable place. Satsang, in Sanskrit, means the coming together of like minds (or community to search for truth. What a beautiful place we have here to do this. Since finding the Path with Erich's love and guidance, Satsang and Darshan have been a routine part of my Yoga practice. Embarking on a journey in search of truth, in every aspect of our life, can be difficult. Someone once said, "Perhaps the most difficult question one can ask on their journey to understand and live truthfully is,'Who Am I'" The asana practice prepares our body for meditation and Satsang by opening the channels of energy, releasing the binds of karmic trauma, and allowing the kundalini energy to rise. Those that continually say "I can't do that, I'm too stiff or old, or heavy" or whatever the reason, have to go beyond. Everything is possible with an open mind and an open heart. This community here is a wonderful place to have Satsang. I am glad Erich gave me the address and I hope that my contributions will make sense. Neem Karoli Baba, "The only thing you must do is feed people and love them. That's all, nothing else." Om Shanti...In Peace and Love Paul Falkenstein
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
6/10/98 12:43:16 PM)
>>I am still very much a beginner, but would love to participate and write anything that may be of value to those on the same path.<< Great! I suspect you're a bit ahead of us, though SuZ has a fairly broad theoretical knowledge of Hinduism, Buddhism and yoga and her personal practical experience is growing quickly with considerable depth. I tend towards "reinventing the wheel" because of a distaste (phobia probably) for dogma and have trouble separating it from knowledge. I'm also deeply suspicious of hierarchical spiritual traditions, no matter what their origin; it's pleasant and useful to have someone like yourself writing here to bridge these things for me and any others so crippled. Adding a topic is trivial (use the add topic link on the topics page) - help yourself or just drop your comments into what looks like a likely place amongst the existing ones. If you have interesting external text, sound or graphics files you'd like to share, link them in here using the HTML tags. Holler if you need some help with the details. As a CommunityWare user you have a couple megabytes free homepage space here for uploading this kind of material that may only be on your local hard drive and I'd be pleased to show you how easy it is. Here's an example of some material like I'm referring to that I put up about Ganesha over in the Eminds community. <altered minds.20.1233>
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SuZett Estell (SuZie Coyote,
6/10/98 3:37:21 PM)
Hello Paul, I am by no means an expert...I'm still rather stiff and inflexible. I've chosen to believe the sage advice that yoga isn't about how many pretzel poses one can achieve, but about how one approaches the process. I wasn't exactly a young woman when I started doing yoga a few years ago (I had just turned 41 when I made an aware decision to begin regular practice.) Though I had done a little yoga off and on in my life, I had difficulty just touching my toes. I haven't made physical progress at any kind of lightening pace, but I feel I have made great strides in my ability to slow down and center myself, which I see as the primary goal. I have studied, to one degree or another, most of the major religions (not too much time on Islam). I have always been drawn to the Hindu view, especially when tempered by the Buddhist perspective. I like the physical side of spirituality that yoga brings. Right now, I personally identify with the energy of Durga, but have felt drawn to Kali, Shiva, Ganesha (who grows in my affection daily), and the other Hindu 'snapshots' of the One. While the doctrines of all religions have their appealing sides, their dogma and cultural practices always leave me disappointed. I've yet to find an exception to this rule. I'm a big fan of Krishnamurti because he tended to avoid hero worship and dogma, preferring to become his own guru (while accepting the lessons of others where it made sense). I must admit I've never done the "Darshan" thing, though many of my friends swear they have gained a lot from such sessions (a good friend of mine twice made the pilgrimage to Germany for Darshan with Mother Meera.) This week (+) I will be spending with Erich is my first "live" experience with a master. Most of my lessons have come from books and videos. But whenever I get a chance to meet any deep spiritual or intellectual person, I do so. Few people can afford to live a yoga lifestyle (as some have begun to perceive it), which includes traveling great distances to study with this master or that. It's great when that can happen, but yoga is supposedly a discipline of simplicity. Householders with children rarely have the disposable income for this kind of time off and travel. That's why Bob and I felt this web page would be useful. We're hoping that people who want to learn can get some connection to Erich (beyond a book) in a manner they can afford. I'd LOVE to get Erich to Colorado some time for some sessions. Maybe some day. Namaste, SuZett
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Paul Falkenstein (PaulFalk,
6/11/98 6:37:29 AM)
Suzett and Bob, Suzett, first of all, ENJOY and SAVOR yor time with Erich. Kirin and I are flying out on the 26th to be with him for a week. He is a beautiful and gifted teacher. I, too, share your love of world religions and philosophy. I grew up Roman Catholic but quickly dismissed organized religion when I was old enough to understand that things were a little skewed with the rational. I have gravitated towards Buddhism over the last 5 years, although many aspects of Hinduism I truly hold dear to my heart. Kirin was born in India, grew up Hindu, did daily Puja and Aarti, and was given a Mantra in a formal initiation by Swami Chinmyananda at the age of 8. Our goal is to get to India some time this year and spend some time studying with them. I love Krishnamurti as well. In fact, Erich turned us on to him and since then we have read everything he's written. Remember, Hatha Yoga is only one form of Yoga so it truly does not matter how well you can do the asanas. Have you exlpored Bhakti, Karma, or Jnana Yoga? They're all equally beautiful. Bob, thanks for the invite to start a new topics section. I am actually finalizing abook that I have written regarding integrating Yoga into our lives. But it is written from the perspective of someone like myself who exists in the corporate world and has benefitted from the experience of the Yoga practice. Trying to find a publisher at this point. Some of the points regarding Yoga and meditation ar particularly relative to some of us corporate types. It is not written from a corporate perspective but from yogic/spiritual perspective. So, who knows what the future will hold. I enjoy each day and live Yoga as much as I can. Namaste Paul
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
6/11/98 8:19:08 AM)
You might consider putting a "teaser" of the book up on the Web and getting some feedback and exposure as you look for the willing publisher. 90% of Erich's text (from his book) is up on his web page and requires less than a megabyte. You are allowed 2 free megabytes on CommunityWare - so, you have a handy spot and a ready audience. If you'd like some help with this, let me know.
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Paul Falkenstein (PaulFalk,
6/11/98 10:34:50 AM)
Bob, Thanks for all the wonderful work you are doing. I would love to learn how to use the space as well as post the new topics you were talking on the holistic page. I have some asana related info Iwould like to post. We just finished hosting an Ashtanga weekend with Duncan Wong. We did primary and secondary series. As you nkow, prior to the practice you chant an invocation to the teachers as a sign of respect and admiration. Even though we have incorporated chanting "Om" prior to our asana classes, our students were electrified. They have asked that we chant an invocation prior to ech class. So far, the results have been amazing. People are saying that they feel differently when doing the asanas and can feel the energy move. We have done chanting in Kirtan and Satsang but only "Om" prior to asana. I was wondering if anyone else had this experience with chanting prior to asana and what the feeling was. Om Shanti Paul
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SuZ Gets Tweaked (crotalus,
6/24/98 8:53:56 AM)
Tried & Tweaked Tough work {all a matter of
perspective, I guess ;-)} but somebody's gotta do it! Teacher Training at Mariel Hemmingway's Sacred Cow Yoga Studio - 6/13-21/98 - Ketchum, Idaho. Photos by Michael Harris. More pics next week on the Web Site!
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
6/24/98 9:24:18 AM)
Hello people! Erich here. I couldn't not respond to that newly-posted photo of SuZ doing the Pincha Mayurasana preparation on the wall. You look great!! But "tough work" for whom? Love you, Erich
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Robert Cox (tympanachus cupido,
6/24/98 12:14:07 PM)
You the man with the tough job but you seem to be coping. The SuZ in Down Dog is hard on my meditation practice I can assure you; it's those funny faces she makes whilst checking the feet. ;-) I notice you've got your profile nicely tweaked; looks like the one with which I'm familiar rather than that of the Darth Vader breathin' lurker I've seen hidin' behind the yoga mats around here. Good to see ya, Erich! I guess we'd best be checkin' before diving in as <schiffmann> for some homepage maintenance ('bout the only thing co-hosts can't do around here). Have you got that monster hard drive yet that you've been lusting after for the video work? You might consider building that as a RAID 3 device out of 9GB SCSI drives and somebody's RAID controller - possibly cheaper and tons less pain if you take a hard drive hit. Uh, sorry 'bout the topic drift but what other Asana Master do you all know that can also make his mojo sing so sweetly? We need to get <maddog> (that's not an asana either) over here to whip us up a Mercedasana (not the car, but the forthcoming 64 bit, 1 GHz Pentium replacement from Ma Intel).
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
6/25/98 2:59:53 PM)
Paul, Erich, or anyone who could help me with this... When I learned asana from my original local teacher (see my web page for a history) it was prescribed that we do an asana workout in a particular sequence. I sometimes find myself lazily relying upon that sequential prescription instead of listening to what my body needs and is ready for at the time of practice. Other times I find that my yoga practice rises from within and these practices seem to take me in more deeply. My question is this: Is sequential practice valuable and if it is how does one weave that in with the discretions of the inner guide? Namaste, Gena (aka earthworm)
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
6/25/98 3:55:54 PM)
Welcome Gena! I see your handle puts you down there at ankle level with me. Interesting perspective, no? Sounds like (from your homepage) that you've tapped into Infinite-Mind. I'll let someone(s) who knows more about yoga answer your questions. Most of Erich's book (but only 13 of the 45 asanas) is on his Web site, BTW.
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
6/26/98 8:53:00 AM)
Thanks for the tips, "crotalus" Bob. FYI, Hadn't thought much about the view, but it fits how I like to keep my physical world smallish, not too expansive. I enjoy heat and moisture/humidity, like a sauna or the wet earth in summer. (My husband thinks I'm crazy.) Gardening is like coming home. I love the idea of earthworms as miniature plows, the low-till plan. And composting? When I gave up my yoga practice for a while back in '88-'91 I started composting, for real and metaphorically (see my bio on my web page). To come back to yoga for me was to accept that yoga was like compost. Previously I treated yoga exclusively as a prescription, a tool, a means to an end. What I brought to yoga is what it gave back to me, like a mirror, only more vivid, almost blinding, it was then that I learned about freedom of choice. And yet, to totally contradict myself...yoga also ...is like a bridge into my Self and when I cross that bridge, the experience is big, tasty, sorta' "infinite" and familiar but still like none other in my life. And yet the first step across that bridge is still filled with trepidation. Today I plan to read Erich's "Listening for Guidance" chapter...that is where I am being called. I haven't read the first 11 chapters but I suppose Infinite Mind isn't a linear process? With Gratitude for the Bridge Builders, Gena
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
6/26/98 9:52:14 AM)
>>fits how I like to keep my physical world smallish, not too expansive.<< Well, come on out to Colorado and stand on a fourteener and push those horizons back a tad.Pikes Peak (14,110') will work - yoga at 14 grand is just that - mighty grand.
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Devin McGuire (gardenweasel,
6/26/98 2:08:51 PM)
Hello new friends, Speeaking of 14 Gs, my wife,Sally,and I will be hiking up Mt. Whiney 7/14. We will then be camping on the CA caost near San Louis Upisbo(sp) July 17-23. Are there any yoga classes in that area where we could visit-practice? Thank yopu for your guidance, Devin
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
6/27/98 10:44:20 AM)
Hi Gena, Erich here. For beginners, I usually recommend they follow a prescribed sequence of poses from their teacher, otherwise they don't know what to do. Following a prescribed plan like this helps establish a practice. It helped me for a number of years. But, more and more, the whole thing is about listening inwardly and doing exactly what feels right in the moment, something you cannot plan for or anticipate in advance, at which time the flow does rise from within and your practice goes deeper. That's what I do. I just start and go by the inner feeling. The creative sequencing that happens is then the living expression of inner guidance. Being able to do this makes yoga more fun, meaningful, creative and pertinent. It took me five or six years of trying before I could do it, though. Revert to the prescribed plan if you find you're not really listening. Dump the plan when you can. Namaste to you, Erich
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
6/28/98 9:28:13 AM)
Thanks Erich, That is very helpful. Namaste, Gena
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Sacred Cow Pies, er... Pics (crotalus,
6/29/98 3:59:32 PM)
The first 10 pictures from the Teacher Training held at the Sacred Cow Yoga Studio in Ketchum, Idaho (6/13-21/98) are now up at http://www.MovingIntoStillness.com/ttrain.htm If anyone would like to provide a review or statement about the training, post it here or send it to me (cox@rmi.net) and I'll add it to the Web Page.
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
6/30/98 2:24:03 PM)
Re: <18> & <23> - From The Interview. More Teacher Training (Sun Valley - 6/98) pictures up on the Web Site. Here's the whole gang:Picture by Michael Harris (at lower left). You'll enjoy a closer look at the Sacred Cow - she looks most <I<nourishing</i> and may violate Clemen's Law that declares "sacred cows make the best hamburger."
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Ouwie!! (SuZie Coyote,
7/23/98 2:29:49 PM)
Can anyone out there help me? How can I tell the difference between the normal soreness that accompanies strength-building isometrics (i.e., yoga) and an injury. I did weight training for years and I know that such soreness usually accompanies progress. I guess the problem comes down to not really knowing my own body that well, specifically the low back. I feel pain in my low back when I do "back-bendy" stuff (Usstrasana, reaching back on a Surya-Namaskar, etc.) For years I've had pain in my right low back/hip, which has been improving off and on through yoga. The pain is not debilitating or constant, but irritating and intermittent. (I believe it is a result of a rather locked left SI joint.) Am I hurting myself by "working thru" the pain? I don't have anxiety around the movements, just the dull pain when I try to bend back. Anyone have any insight? Erich mentioned during his class that he once hurt his back and was told by Iyengar "no backbends for a year." Is there any clear signs that accompany injuries? SuZ
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Frank40 Hannafey (Frank40,
7/25/98 5:13:35 AM)
Dear SuZ, Thanks for your post. I am new to this community and I have really enjoyed the conversation here so far. I share your experience but perhaps for different reasons. I am relatively new to yoga although I have been around it for many years as members of my family have been serious yoga persons. Beginning yoga this summer in a serious way I too have felt myself working thru some initial soreness, etc. I've been in dialogue with my teacher about this and she has offered me some tips about how to proceed. My general sense is that it is really important to assess the pain itself-- is it sharp? very chronic? dull? You mention your history with back pain-- I might go gently with this. I have found that the "good growing kind of soreness" usually passes fairly quickly. For me at least an injury seems to linger for longer periods of time and the pain seems sharper, more pronounced, or at least it gets more of my attention. I have also found that general soreness in the mornings which seems to work itself out a few hours into the day is for me a good sign that this is not an injury. But like you I have wondered about the fine line between injury and "growing pains." For example, recently I had what I thought was a fairly minor ankle injury that many yoga positions seemed to make much more painful. There were assorted creaks and cracks (ouch) as I tried to ease into various positions. I layed off these positions for a few days and babied the ankle a bit (it is often a delight to baby oneself) and it seemed to heal quickly. Maybe I'm simply stating the obvious here, but for me it has been really important to listen to and accept the soreness and pain, but I have been very hesitant and cautious about agressively working thru it. For me at least, the old "no pain no gain" slogan is really problematic for yoga...and maybe for many other things in life!? I am perhaps like a kid with a new discovery-- yoga-- and I have tried to do different things when one part or other of my body decides to rebel slightly! Funny, this seems to be working reasonably well. All the best! Frank
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Alix Rowland (Yogamama,
7/28/98 1:07:05 AM)
Hi Frank and Suz, I used to suffer from a pinching sensation in the lower back during back bending. I don't think it's too uncommon. I worked very gently around it cause it hurt alot. Focusing on lengthening and softening the front of the body helped. Thighs rolling in a bit opens the sacrum. Patience and now urdhva dhanurasana is pretty much pain free most days.
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Frank Hannafey (Frank40,
7/28/98 6:43:29 AM)
Dear Alix, Thanks...that's helpful to hear. I myself have sensed a bit of the back "rumblings" you mention on occasion. For me it has been sort of a stiffness, kind of a tingling in the lower back, not serious, but perhaps a beginner's body making adjustments? I too have found rolling the hips a bit to help. Wishes, Frank
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Paul Falkenstein (PaulFalk,
7/29/98 6:48:59 AM)
Suz, Sorry for the lengthy delay from the board but have been very busy opening th enew studio. Anyway, in regards to your question about pain, injury and discomfort is a good one and most often understood. The easiest way to assess whether you are going to far and injuring yourself or just experiencing that "edge" Erich talks about is to do some very simple exercises. Typically what happens is this. We start a new thing, like Yoga, and we feel we need to jump into with both feet. We never realize that Yoga works the entire body and that we are using muscles we have never used before. So it is very possible to overextend ourselves during thbeginning phases of our asana practice. Begin and end each day with a series of Cat and Dog tilts, as well as, just a slow gentle standing forward bend. We need to begin to lengthen our spine and get it healthy enough to sustain the forward and backward movement of the asana. If you are still experiencing the discomfort in these exercises, back off and go slowly in Surya Namaskar and other bends until the spine is loose and flexible. Hope this helps Om Shanti, Paul Falkenstein
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Devin McGuire (gardenweasel,
7/30/98 11:26:28 AM)
Howdy Folks, I'm perplexed (is that a yoga posture). I've been practicing yoga regularly now for about 2.5yrs here in Bloomington IN. Last year I was asked if I'd be interested in leading some 8wk intro classes at the local university. Being so much of a beginner myself, I was hesitant to accept the challenge. Yet, believing that we teach what we most need to learnand wanting to learn and practice much more I decided to accept this opportunity. Most of my studies have been from text(The Iyengar Way, Moving Into Stillness, The Heart of Yoga)and video(Yoga Journals series of 6 and Lilias). The primary instructor at the IU sportsrec center is primarily trained in Himalayan Institute yoga. In an effort to make our classes more similar, she'd like for me to teach more classical type yoga which she believes is Swami Sivananda, Swami Rama,type hatha yoga. Its a difficult change for me. Any suggestions. P.S. Hi Alix, I was at the Yoga Center last week but missed your class. Please say hi to Peter, Catherine, Katherine, Richard, and Thom Blessings,
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
7/30/98 12:47:04 PM)
Hey Devin, good to see ya back - any more poetry to share? What could possibly be behind the urge [surely not ego ;-) ] of the IU yoga instructor to "insist" on complementary styles? Seems to me you've been at it long enough to deserve an opinion. Ask Infinite Mind what to do.
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SuZett Estell (SuZie Coyote,
7/30/98 4:35:14 PM)
Hello, All Thanks for the feedback Paul. I have been really pushing myself since I came back from the intensive with Erich. I don't feel that I've damaged anything. I just feel like I've been working out hard (as if pumping weights). As Bob tells me, "It's always a matter of balance." I've not done much massage lately (I'm a certified Neuromuscular Massage Therapist (NMT)) due to chronic shoulder and hip pain. It's been an interesting journey. I got certified about five years ago and had kept up a moderate part-time practice (as well as teaching NMT), but began to have physical problems with it last year. In retrospect the pain came on gradually over months. But you know how it is..its easy to shut out pain until it becomes insistent enough to get attention. What I believed happened, was that I had a lot of blocked energy areas and postural imbalances in my body going into the massage work. My massage school did next to nothing to prepare us for the physical demands of massage, other than saying, "It's physically demanding. Take care of yourselves." Since the type of massage I was doing was very aggressive and physical, my postural imbalances eventually escalated into areas of chronic pain. After five years, I burned out. I feel the yoga is doing a lot to help me correct the deeper problems that caused the burn-out. I have decided to take a year off of massage to allow the yoga to correct my posture before going back into the fray. Lack of flexibility in my hips and sacrum are the key factor (they are with most people, in my experience). I came from a family that believed strongly in the "spare the rod (in this case strap) and spoil the child" philosophy. My experience with massage shows that most people who have been beaten as children (I don't call it spanking, because it is not) have the same sorts of difficulty. The inevitable result of child-beating is rigid bodies, especially in the hip and low back areas. I've seen and dealt with this issue both personally and with scores of clients. I used to believe that massage was the answer. Massage does work out a lot of problems, but problems (or related ones) eventually come back until the inner work is accomplished. Massage helps a person become aware of his or her body, but yoga is teaching me that the healing must be internalized to be effective in the long term. This is primarily because the wounds are more than physical - they are both emotional and spiritual. Massage combined with a regular yoga practice seems to carry real promise. So, I'm a woman with a mission. I want to to regain the physical symmetry they I may not have had since I was two years old! Then, I want to incorporate what I've learned into developing a massage school curriculum that emphasizes personal self-care for the therapist as much as care for the client. Namaste: SuZ
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Alix Rowland (Yogamama,
7/30/98 10:09:09 PM)
Hi Devin, You were vacationing out here? Have you known
my friends and comrades for long. Richard was my first
teacher and I took his class regularly for two years. I
asked him to teach in Atascadero and he drove up here
for us once a week. That's how I started teaching, to
offer a beginers class to ease people into richards
class. I went to SLO this morning and took a wonderful
restorative class with Peter. I appreciate his
abilities so much. Thank the gods and goddesses for our
teachers!
My reaction to your predicament was the same as
Bob's. I thought variety was the spice of Yoga. One
rule that has worked for me in my teaching is TEACH
WHAT YOU KNOW.
SuZ, your mission sounds like it is going to lead you
right out of your other predicament of not doing work
that is spiritualy aligned with your values. Good luck.
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
7/31/98 8:01:13 AM)
Yep. She has the opportunity to advance the state-of-the-art; integration of massage, yoga and breathwork (conscious breathing as Hendricks calls it) for both the provider and the client. Let's not let her wiggle out of it.
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Paul Falkenstein (PaulFalk,
8/3/98 7:37:49 AM)
Namate Everyone, Devin, in reply to some of your questions, I understand your intial hesitations. We here in America have taken a very different approach to Yoga and have gotten away from the original teachings for the most part. With the help of teachers like Erich, we are getting back to the original roots. In my humble opinion, people are becoming Yoga teachers here in America way to soon and without the proper training. Originally, the student studied with the Guru for many, many years before they were able to pass down that knowledge. Even here in America, we had a few great teachers travel to India and learn directly from the source. I support this view totally. What I see happening alot is this. People who have taken yoga for several years, gain some knowledge about Yoga asana, and finally they feel they are ready to teach. When you teach beginners, you need to know EVERYTHING there is to know, you are the direct link that is handing down this knowledge from 5000 years ago. Second, Yoga is big here in America now so we have alot of aerobics teachers and others go off and getting training in just the physical part. What we are promoting here is stretching and not Yoga. Yoga is a lifelong practice that goes way beyond the physical practice. At our center, our teachers have studied for at least a minimum of 5 years and are capabale of discussing Yoga philosophy and spirituality without hesitation. Sanskrit is our language and it is taught at all classes, as is chanting and meditation. If any of these things feel uncomfortable, chances are you may need some more time. In regards to the person wanting you to teach more of a Sivananda style, I can understand that reasoning. If they are trying to build a program that is consistent and teaches a particular philosophy or style, than it may be wise to condense to a single format. We do that at our center, all the teachers teach a "house" style but we give them freedom to explore their own asana flows. There are many subtle differences bewteen styles and going to one class that teaches the breath this way and another class that teaches it that way can be very confusing for a beginning student. Hang in there and good luck with the new assignment. Om Shanti, Paul
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
8/4/98 11:49:48 AM)
Your point is a very good one Paul. I'm sure we would all benefit from learning from enlightened masters. To my knowledge however, there are none living in the county that I live in. I feel that my students are benefiting more from doing asana with me and my limited knowledge then not doing it at all. As they learn, some of them become thirsty for knowledge and will travel and take workshops from visiting teachers to find it as I have been doing. Namaste, Alix
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SuZett Estell (SuZie Coyote,
8/4/98 2:22:57 PM)
Hello - back again from my trip to Kansas. It always quite an experience being with my family of birth. Glad to be back. Hello, Paul. Thanks for your post. I agree that in the "exercization" of yoga (through the health clubs and aerobics teachers), the philosophical side has taken a secondary role. But I'm not sure I agree that only "experts" should be teaching yoga. I would offer, in the spirit of discussion, a different perspective. Yoga's allure is strong. All it takes is a sample and a little success to pique a student's interest. The bright and willing student will, after having learned as much as possible from a less-than-expert teacher will seek out someone with greater training and knowledge. The beautiful part of yoga (for me, anyway) is that it can be as simple or as complex as one wants. I maintain that basic yoga (what Erich calls the core poses) is quite simple, easily learned and hard to get wrong (other than by overdoing or being inattentive.) I originally learned yoga from video tapes. While the instructors on the tapes were accomplished, there was no way they could put "everything" on a 45-minute tape (and very few videos, by the way, are much more than asana practice with, perhaps, a nod to meditation.) But I learned a lot from those tapes and was not hampered from my subsequent yoga experiences from lack of an available expert during my beginning work. I think we need to be very wary of establishing an elite club of people who have had the "right" gurus, training, birth pedigree, etc. Krishnamurti cautions to avoid relying on a guru for wisdom, which he said should come from within. Vanda Scaravelli says in her book, Awakening the Spine, "Be very, very careful of organizations." As in all relationships, "Caveat Emptor" is the operative phrase. One has to pick one's instructor wisely. Of course, safety is paramount, and instructors must be held liable for their activities. I've already had people tell me, "Yoga is a yuppie thing. It's so expensive." I would say that this is a valid criticism. Few in our culture can afford to spend five years or more studying yoga and then provide inexpensive yoga instruction. Serious students will find money to pay for a serious teacher (and associated retreats, seminars, etc.). But the serious teacher may never see that student if some lesser-qualified (and less expensive) teacher doesn't help develop basic skills and an interest in yoga in the student. I've been doing yoga off and on throughout my life, but only seriously for the past three-four years. I teach a lunch time yoga class at the engineering firm where I work as a marketing representative. (I don't charge my students.) I am not an expert, but I do have a background in massage therapy (both as a practitioner and a teacher). I don't teach anything esoteric - simply basic yoga asanas, combined with conscious breathing. I live in a very Christian community. Many of my students would have had nothing to do with a Yoga teacher who first emphasized the philosophy and Sanskrit terminology of Yoga. But now, after two years working with me on Yoga, they have become interested in the other side of yoga, because they have learned to appreciate the benefits they've received so far. Sanskrit is wonderful. It's a beautiful language and flows off the tongue (judging from the little I know). Still, I don't think it is essential that beginning yoga students be taught in Sanskrit terms. If a student can learn a pose called "Cobra" what does it matter that there is a confusing (to them) Sanskrit name called "Bhujangasana." Serious students are interested in the Sanskrit, of course, as they are in seeking out expert teachers. I went through this with massage therapy. I spent a lot of time, money and effort getting certifications, licenses, etc., to enable me to effectively (and safely) practice. I am well-trained and had my own path. However, there are those in the field right now who are seeking to make licensing follow a set of national "standards." They would (and have in several states) freeze out practitioners who refuse to follow their curriculum. As time went by, I found I was going to have to forgo the path I set for myself and follow the path that others ordained if I was to continue practicing massage. And.suddenly I was going to have to spend money on gaining and maintaining a certification that offered me nothing but a "ticket" to practice. I asked Erich which teacher had the most profound influence on him. He told me it was Joel Kramer. Interestingly, Joe followed his own path, and didn't proceed from a recognized line of guru's. This is not to say that expertly trained gurus are not important - but they are out of reach for many practitioners. Namaste SuZ
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Devin McGuire (gardenweasel,
8/5/98 1:43:29 PM)
These postings are exceptionally helpful. Thank you all, Paul,Suzie and Yogamama. Please continue...
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
8/6/98 7:39:55 AM)
Here's an excerpt from an interview with Joel K in the
Yoga Journal of 8-9/86:
Joel, in the past 15 years or so, you've carved out
a name for yourself as something of a maverick in the
Western yoga community. You are almost completely
self-taught, you don't seem to follow anybody's rules
but those of your own instincts, and your theories, in
some cases, debunk some of the classical teachings of
yoga. What's yoga all about for you?
From my perspective, yoga is a transformative
process, a continual renewal of the possibilities we
have as human beings. And my movement in yoga has been
to translate a lot of what might be called the wisdom
of the ages into modern, meaningful terms that can be
appropriate for our lives and our culture.
See also his 5-6/80 Yoga Journal article "Yoga As
Transformation" where he clearly lays out the lines of
energy, playing your edge and focus techniques. I
can't yet recommend his (with D. Alstad) book Guru
Papers but I'll have a book report soon.
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
8/6/98 10:15:09 AM)
Hello all,
I'm off to Utah so won't be around here for a
while. I bought Shiva Rea's CD, Sanctuary, and am
looking forward to letting her guide me through some of
my daily practices. I usually pick my own sequence when
I practice but probably don't always work as hard as I
could. Going to class or having Shiva lead, I find
myself turning off "thinking mind", as Shiva calls it,
and going deeper into the asanas. Have a great August,
Namaste, Alix
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SuZett Estell (SuZie Coyote,
8/6/98 12:47:50 PM)
Alix, have a great time in Utah. When you return, I'd like to hear what you think of Shiva's CDs. I've seen them advertised and am intrigued. Namaste SuZ
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Frank (Frank40,
8/11/98 6:53:22 PM)
Hi all, I was hoping to ask a question about asana practice. As some of you know, I began regular yoga practice just this summer, and it has been wonderful. I have been meeting with a teacher weekly, and I hope to be able to continue these meetings into the fall. I believe that I have progressed to the point where I am trying to bring regular variety into my practices, based mostly on how I am feeling, but I am also trying to be balanced by being attentive to different parts of my body during sessions. I now find myself faced with the "order" question, that is, how to creatively "structure" a daily practice, which asanas to include in a particular session, while remaining sound, balanced, and healthy in daily sessions? I am not exactly sure how to proceed here? I want to keep working in some variety-- you know, the spice of life and all! I have some warm up routines, and I like to begin slow. After relaxation poses and some initial warm up movements and stretches, I do the sun series, and then move into various asanas. I have consulted the closing pages of Erich's book which suggests some asana routines for practices. But I still feel a bit unsure about this since I am new at yoga. I do not want to be rigid here, but hope to keep progressing in a healthy and non-injury prone way. I am not into the very advanced asanas yet, but I feel the desire to mix things up a bit. Any thoughts? Also, a more specific question: is it "better" to generally do more of the standing poses early in a session? Does the stretching that comes with the standing poses prepare one for more demanding poses lying down, etc? I believe I read this somewhere. I welcome all thoughts you might have. Thanks! Wishes, Frank
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SuZett Estell (SuZie Coyote,
8/12/98 9:04:08 AM)
Hello Frank: Erich may have more information later (as he returns from his traveling and has time to interact here), but I'll share with you what he shared with us during teacher training. Here's his recommend session phasing: 1. Meditation (centering) 2. Opening poses (loosening poses, usually related to the proposed theme of the class) 3. Salutations (warm-ups) 4. Standing Poses (big poses, strengthening) 5. Inversions (before you get too tired) 6. Backbends (the counterposes for inversions) 7. Forward Bends (counterposes for backbends) 8. Twists (get the kinks out) 9. Savasana (deep relaxation, absorb benefits) 10. Meditation (integration) Erich encourages using a balanced set of poses - a little bit of everything - at least one standing pose, one forward bend, one backbend, one inversion, one twist, etc. Go from easy to difficult, for safety. Hope this helps. SuZett
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Devin McGuire (gardenweasel,
8/12/98 1:25:53 PM)
Hi Frank, I have found the above sequence(45) very helpful. i will sometimes do backbends following the warm up and standing poses because of the heat and pliability they bring to backbends,and then do the inversions to bring the invigorating juices of backbending down through the ductless glands,cleansing the heart,throat, and brain. More briefly, sometimes I switch #5 and #6, depending which will be the greater focus for the day. Above all, enjoy!
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Frank (Frank40,
8/12/98 4:38:33 PM)
Dear SuZett and Devin, Thanks very much! Thats a great help and your suggestions seem so natural and balanced and keep things varied too. Wishes, Frank
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Paul Falkenstein (PaulFalk,
8/13/98 8:10:56 AM)
Namaste Everyone, The topic of Yoga Teaching is still on my mind. Suz, I understand where you are coming from but my point is this. It is not about being an expert but about experiencing and living Yoga. IMHO, a person who has only been "practicing" Yoga for 1-2 years hasn't even begun to scratch the surface about asana and philosophy. While I am opposed to an elitist mentality I am strongly for Teachers that have lived and practiced Yoga for several years before passing on knowledge to new students. In teaching beginners, one must know alot about Yoga. Not only about physical movements but about philosophy and spirituality. In regards to your comments about asanas and the basics being easily mastered, I disagree. You can spend a lifetime refining and mastering the basic asana postures. Whose to say they're perfect and mastered. Iyengar would continually refine and adjust his most senior students and tell them that they still need more practice on alignment. I guess, Suz, my whole point is this. We here in the West typically "westernize" everything. We have a rush-rush-rush mentality about everything. Losing weight, making money, and buying things. It has to be now or never. I think the approach and the rationale is simple, and most Indian scholars, yogis, and saints will tell you. Learn everything you can and experience everything you can before you impart your wisdom and philosophy on others. I can see the difference in our own studios. We have several other Yoga studios in our surrounding community. We have been to those classes and quite frankly, the teacher only having 1-2 years experience really shows. The teacher didn't know a thing about adjusting, asana sequencing, philosophy, or couldn't answer any basic questions about breathing. What little they did answer was completely wrong. When those students come to our center, they stay. The reason they stay is because we have taken the time to study, learn, and live Yoga. We have at this point over 300 students who practice on a daily basis and the main reason is because we stick to the original foundations. We have turned down many requests for a Yoga Teacher Training program because we feel that we are not yet qualified to train teachers. Our teachers for the most part have studied asana for at least five years and have a regular asana and meditation practice. While I understand that everyone's experience is different, let's not continue to "westernize" yoga. When that happens, I can just see the books now. Enlightenment in 24 hours Made easy! Om Shanti Paul Falkenstein
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
8/14/98 11:46:17 AM)
Yes indeed, the West can "improve" anything in the rush to make it a desirable commodity. Props and shortcuts and you-name-it can make it expensive and a "gotta have" deal. I stopped Wednesday at the 10th Mountain Division Camp overlook enroute to Glenwood Springs for a self indulgent pause <16.27> on my way to Salt Lake City. Some of the lads of the 10th MDiv returned to start the ski industry of North America. They trained in Colorado before the horrific experience they had in the Alps during WW II. I'll admit to a tear or two as I stood thinking about them in the context of Spielburg's latest effort. I remember getting into XC skiing in 1968 by picking up some WW II surplus skis (painted white they were and they cost $4!) off which I cut the 3/8" metal edges and replaced the atrocious bindings with some $8 modern mountaineering ones. New poles cost me $6. My "snow sealed" climbing boots and some gators completed the costume. Compare that outlay (even with adjusted dollars) to the cost of getting into XC today. Sure I had to hunt up some pine tar and wax (two greens and a blue are about all you need for Colorado) to get it right but I did some serious winter mountaineering in that rig. Sounds to me like you've got a good conservative recipe, Paul and client loyalty is the proof. The marketplace will usually sort out things (without standards) if a variety of choice and price is provided but it seems a good idea to embark on a service or a product with standards in mind. One of the reasons SuZ and I embarked on this labor of love (web site and conference, in particular) with Erich's teaching was to provide a place for folks see the full range of opinion about the practice of yoga and to be able to interact with people who have a handle on yoga (more'n one way to stretch the cat skin). We really appreciate your participation here and the viewpoint you represent is important and germane. Don't be shy about opening some topics to develop your position.
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
8/14/98 12:04:23 PM)
Heh. My description of the "complete XC skiing costume" implies naked from the calf up. Well maybe in the Spring ;-) I'm tempted (and can't resist) to remind us all of the 24 hour instant enlightenment phase we experienced in the '60s and '70s (not me boss, I was an Aggie EE geek) with Sex, Drugs and Rock&Roll. How is that we ended up that experiment saddled with the Republican drug (Leary said pot and mushrooms are Democratic, coke and alcohol are Republican) of crack? If you want to get to the bottom (take crack!) of this, read David Lenson's book
On Drugs. It got SuZ off caffeine. Lenson admits (private correspondence) that he wishes it would do the same for him. He's a prof of comp lit at UMASS and his book is well worth the time.
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Oh Yeah (crotalus,
8/14/98 12:14:11 PM)
I suspect this Avon Calling link is buried too deep above to surface for anyone with less than 10 hours/day to put into the web vice, but it is germane to this thread - have a look, it's a giggle. The product line is featured in this week's Avon catalog - "retro hip" must be sellin'.
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Frank (Frank40,
8/14/98 5:48:01 PM)
Hi all, Another question about asana practice. The other day I had yoga class, and we were working on standing poses much of the session. At one point I was into variations of Trikonasana (Triangle) and then moved into Virabadrasan (Warrior Pose). My teacher was suggesting that I open up my hands more in these poses, to be open to the energy movements, and I was amazed at the tingling and other funny things my hands were doing. Of course, these reactions may simply be the voice of middle age speaking in my body!!? But recently I have encountered conflicting suggestions about hand positioning in the standing poses, some suggestions to keep one's fingers close together for more focus. While I realize there are probably many good variations here, as a new yoga person, I welcome your thoughts. What is best to do with your hands-- particularly the positioning of your fingers, etc.-- during the standing poses? My sense is that hand and finger positioning in these asanas is quite important, so I welcome hearing your views and experiences on this. Thanks! Frank
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
8/15/98 5:01:31 PM)
Dear Frank, My experience is that hand position is not as important as lines of energy moving down the arms and into the fingers (legs too). The energy will guide the hand and arm position. BYW, the tingling you feel is energy. Do not dismiss this. Follow the energy. I'm not as confident about this next piece (I'm following the guidance of Infinite Mind here,) but if you haven't already started to learn meditation, it seems like it is time now. Once you start having sensations of energy, it is important to begin to learn what to do with it and where to find the still point or center of that energy. Perhaps Paul or Erich can recommend a cassette or a good teacher or book. When I chose to believe that asana was about physical posturing only and not energy, I got stuck and hurt. You are on your way to a deeper understanding of what You are. This process goes on and on and on ... It is really good that you are asking so many questions. Gena
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Frank (Frank40,
8/15/98 5:57:03 PM)
Dear Gena, Thanks for your reactions and suggestions here. I'm grateful. Yes, meditation is so central-- I do a fair amount of Christian prayer and pray regularly with other Christians. I am still easing into a sense of how yoga fits and complements my own religious faith and meditative practices. And yes, lots of tingling, and it is a good kind. I especially notice this in the hands when trying to open them up in various standing poses. I do need to learn more about the energy movements. When you say you got stuck and hurt, I'm not sure that I exactly understand what you mean? Do you mean physically hurt, and that progress did not move forward? Thanks again Gena! Frank
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
8/16/98 11:47:59 AM)
Dear Frank, Yes, physically and emotionally I was hurting. All my concious bodies were stuck and hurting. I was in crisis and yet I didn't know how to ask for guidance and wasn't getting the kind of assistance I needed from my teachers. I was able to go through the motions of asana but often felt terrible afterward. Sarvangasana or shoulder stand was particularly troublesome. After practice of it I would feel angry and irritable. I had increasing problems with low back pain and chronic neck/shoulder spasms and would visit the chiropractor at least weekly. The few times I did ask for help, my teacher was really unable to help me. That was 10 years ago. The healing has been long and tedious but worth it. I'm glad to hear you are on a meditative path. That really does go hand in hand with asana. Good luck. Gena
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Paul Falkenstein (PaulFalk,
8/17/98 10:44:28 AM)
Bob, Thanks for the words. And thanks to everybody for putting up with my seemingly unapologetic spiritual approach to Yoga and asana. Dare I say, I was going to be a Catholic priest but could not comprehend the rigidity and riduculous approach that organized religion took in gaining membership. It wasn;t until I met Erich that my true spiritual path unfolded. Becuase of his early inspiration, I have made Yoga a lifestyle. I practice asana at least once a day, usually two. But what I have found, in my personal life, is that the more I adhere to the original appraoch, the more my mind and body respond. So, please don't think I am a militant Yogi!!! I am actually pretty calm and level headed. Ask Erich, he'll tell you! Love to you all from the right-winger. Om Shanti In Peace and Love, Paul
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
8/17/98 11:49:05 AM)
I took (take) you for enthusiastic and excited about tapping into the Truth of Yoga - no extra tolerance required. Do you still take the Catholic sacraments?
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SuZett Estell (SuZie Coyote,
8/17/98 2:36:15 PM)
Paul, Thanks for your comments. Yours appears to be a "fundamentalist" approach to Yoga in that you believe the path is best followed exactly as passed on to you, (mostly via written record, but also by the guru lineage important to you.) Nothing is wrong with choosing a fundamentalist perspective for one's own self. It is an honest and consistent point of view. It can result in great spiritual gains for the adherent (which is obviously the case for you.) Where fundamentalism earns its bad reputation is in the tendency of some fundamentalist practitioners (regardless of the particular religion) to attempt to force their belief on others. The way to spot this tendency made manifest is to look for a bureaucracy lobbying for legislation on behalf of the belief to the detriment of the free-market. In Yoga (like bodywork), I see this lobbing in support of a national requirement for teacher/practitioner standards. Recently, I was discussing this issue with a fellow who had recently completed Bikram's 75-day teacher's training. This fellow was fairly new to Yoga (not much more, by his admission, than a beginner when he started Bikram's training). He had strong beliefs that the field of Yoga teachers should be limited to those who have been trained to a set of national standards (and have a little piece of paper stating so). After questioning him a length about why he thought it was important to restrict the field in such a way, he finally got to the heart of his issue. "I want to be a yoga teacher and its hard to make a living doing it, because so many are teaching So, in my view, the issue becomes the same as it was in bodywork..a desire to restrict the field so that one's own economic interests are furthered. No where is it written that being a Yoga teacher should result in a life-sustaining income. Where it DOES sustain a life (or family), it is a testament to the skill, mastery and abilities of the teacher (not to a bank account which allows a person to successfully buy his or her "tickets" to teach.) You obviously have a highly successful business teaching Yoga. That is WONDEFUL. Your "fundamentalism" and dedication to your path has resulted in your ability to attract and retain students. You have managed to successfully combine your spiritual life with your economic needs - right livelihood! I admire and aspire! You have had the right to choose this path for yourself, without laws that push you in one direction or another. I maintain others should have the same right. I am still particularly bitter about what is going down in bodywork with regards to what I call "unionization" through professional associations, yet it too late to stop the advancing tsunami of legislation. I would see any attempt to legislate Yoga training or restrict the field of teachers as an infringement on my constitutional religious rights. At the same time, I'd defend everyone's right to practice and "fundamentally" as they see fit! Schools should have the right to be as complex or as simple as their founders desire and students have a right to select the education that is right for them. Mostly.I am grateful to those people, like you Paul, who do work hard to preserve the lessons of the past, so that I may learn and choose for myself. I am just ever-wary of those who would "organize and legislate the truth." Namaste SuZ
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
8/17/98 6:01:54 PM)
To Everyone, Just want to say I'm really enjoying all this dialogue. I've been busy teaching, traveling and moving into a new home and have not been able to jump into this as much as I would like. Am just now catching up by reading everything posted so far. Am thoroughly enjoying it all. And, standing up for Paul, I totally agree that, as he says, he is "actually pretty calm and level-headed." Paul, didn't know about your Catholic priest leanings... I'm here. Erich
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SuZett Estell (SuZie Coyote,
8/18/98 7:20:28 AM)
Hello Erich! Congratulations on your new home and welcome back. Hope you and your wife have many years of happiness in it. Bob and I are looking forward to seeing you at the Yoga conference in October. Hope you're moved in by then! Paul, I echo Bob's comments - I figure you are simply and happily delighted with yoga! SuZett
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Paul Falkenstein (PaulFalk,
8/19/98 7:00:24 AM)
Hello Erich, Bob, and Suz, Feeling overwhelmingly loved at this moment. Erich, great to hear from you. Just booked our trip today to come and see you. Kirin is already packing and can't wait. Erich, the Catholic Priest thing happened right before I entered college. Was looking for spirituality in all thr wrong places until I found Yoga. Bob, no, I don't take the catholic rights anymore. Don't feel they can hold a candle to what I have learned in the Yoga practice. Anyway, Suz, regarding national standards and Yoga. Need to give that some thought. My first reaction is "No" but I have to learn not to always blurt out what comes to my mind initially. Perhaps I will think about it. But, I'm curious, why would a total beginner to Yoga jump into a 75 day Bikram Teacher training when you hardly even know what Yoga is? If his incentive was to become a teacher so he can make money, obviously looking at Yoga in the wrong way, as you mentioned. That's not to say that one can't make a living sharing what they know, but it should not be the primary purpose. Anyway, who knows. I'm just one voice in a million Yogis who probably all have different opinions. That's what makes the practice so great. Om Shanti, Paul
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
8/19/98 10:04:11 AM)
Hi all, I was just reading back to some of the early entries in this topic, Asanas. I stumbled into the stillness conference in June and since then my perception and perspective have changed in some wonderfully astounding ways. Recently I have taken a leap of faith to conciously focus INTENTION upon two areas: the importance of YOGA in my life and the HEALING of the planet (in the deepest sense.) This INTENTION is beginning to create a motivation coming from deep within to dedicate my life to the service of the INTENTION. In contrast, in the past I used external reasons and understandings to motivate myself. I was reflecting on Paul and SuZ' early discussion of Satsang in this topic, and realized that part of what has happened to me is a logarythmic increase in my awareness that I am NOT ALONE in this INTENTION. This conference, the Esoteric Healing class I have started, Erich's presence have played a part in this. But also somehow, I also know that I was ready...that something inside of me has unraveled enough so that the light can illuminate differently than before. And I have an abiding sense that even within the gloomier cycles of life, this illumination will be present as long as I continue my INTENTION. A result of this is my deepened desire to meditate regularly. Namaste, Gena
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
8/19/98 2:20:19 PM)
Gena, you really would find that this is the right time to be reading Hogue. He will give you a global and temporal perspective that will light up your intention.
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
8/19/98 4:01:22 PM)
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Hip Opener Cycle (crotalus,
8/21/98 2:26:49 PM)
This cycle is from Erich's article in the September/October 1998 Yoga Journal - pick up a copy for the full description. BENEFITS Opens hips in all directions Prepares body for deeper forward folds, back bends, and twists Increases flexibility of legs, back, chest and shoulders Stimulates circulation in spine, abdomen and torso Improves digestion and elimination Prepares body for relaxation See Cycles within Cycles for pics and description.
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Peggy Breckinridge (inner, 8/22/98
8:47:32 AM)
Am interested in advise/resources related to teaching yoga to overweight students. I have had a personal yoga practice for the past 3 years and just finished Kripalu's yoga teacher training. I will be teaching my first class this fall at the small college where I also teach nursing. I was looking at the registration list and recognize the name of a student who I taught in nursing. She is very ready and interested in yoga and I am pleased to see her name in my registration. But I also have some trepidation. I would estimate she weighs 250 lbs. Could someone provide some ideas/advise/resources for guiding her. Thanks- Peggy
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Frank (Frank40,
8/24/98 3:30:26 AM)
Hi all, Just back from a quiet weekof vacation in northern Vermont. Had lots of time for yoga in the peaceful green mountains there! Good to catch up on the conversation here. Wishes, Frank
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Frank (Frank40,
8/24/98 3:39:30 AM)
Dear Gena, A belated response to your earlier message. Healing, nothing like it! And it is a continuing process, at least it seems. By the way, a few days ago I too tried the shoulder stand for the first time and perhaps that explains my body's recent soreness and other muscle rumblings!? Wishes, Frank
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
8/24/98 7:24:24 AM)
Welcome Peggy B! Looks like you've got a tough question. Does your friend have other issues like hypertension? Seems to me yoga is about as gentle a way to get some exercise going as you can find. Keeping her expectations in line with her early-on capabilities may be challenging to her ego. A lot of reassurance and caution about only going into the poses as far as she is comfortable seems a good idea. Let's hope she doesn't have too strong a competitive drive - maybe some blinders (those of understanding and emotion) to minimize the tendency to unwarranted comparisons to the rest of the class are in order. Tell us more about your Kripalu training when you get a moment.
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
8/24/98 7:31:57 AM)
Frank, I suspect our bods have always been giving this feedback but we've now begun to listen. Age (oh no, not me) may also have a little something to do with it ;-). Was it solitary yoga or a group experience in Vermont?
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Frank (Frank40,
8/25/98 5:21:40 AM)
Dear Bob, Yes, the age-body dialectic!? I did mostly solitary yoga in Vermont, looking out a great big picture window with the green lush mountains all around-- I'm planning a return visit for the fall! Another question from this novice yoga person: just a few days ago I began trying Sarvangasana (shoulder stand) and then gently moved into Halasana (the plow). While having fun with these as they are new for me, that evening and into the next morning I notice what feels like a "muscle pull" around my stomach, and particularly on the right side. Ouch! This is the second time I've experienced this discomfort-- once last week in the Green Mountain state. Any connection with these asanas? I approached them gently and tried to build up into them, but am wondering if I did something wrong. Or it may just be the age thing yet again!! Thanks for any insight you might have on this. And enjoy the close of summer! Wishes, Frank
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
8/26/98 8:50:01 AM)
Namaste to you Frank, Great question. Do you know where your psoas muscle is? I have experienced challenges to my psoas in halasana and shoulder stand, particularly if I try to practice it early in the day. I wonder if doing a bit of pranayama practice would bring you into greater awareness of the abdominal/pelvic region and its movements. I find that the more in depth my awareness is, the fewer injuries I experience. I had a class in which the teacher spent the entire time on abdominal awareness, by having us lay face down on small but firm pillows, into which we let go, moved, breathed, lifted parts of our bodies, and found ourselves moving like an infant who is just beginning to become aware of the possibility of locomotion (think 5-8 months old). It was powerful. The belly can hold lots of emotional trauma from in utero to birth to infancy to childhood. Trust the belly, it has a lot to tell you. When I have pain, I ask during meditation what message the pain has for me and then I wait. The answer could be immediate or it could come in a dream or as an "aahaa" after you resume daily activity. Trust the answer. And, follow the truth at the core of it. There may be several layers to the pain but if you hang in there, you will get to the core of it. Also, assume an attitude of loving awareness as you ask for a message. Jung and experience have convinced me that the "dark" or unconcious aspect of myself needs to be embraced and I find that it is best done with love and gentleness. The second and third chakras (a.k.a. energy centers) govern the belly region, which starts higher than you might think, up into the rib cage (visualize diaphragm) and extends all the way to the pubic bone/top of sacrum. The second or sacral center has to do with physical creativity and is linked with self esteem. The third or solar plexus center has to do with self-awareness and is affected by our emotional state. (Visualize at least three dimensions to the belly, more if you can.) I like to visualize Buddha Belly, since for our culture it is considered very wrong and bad to have a "soft belly". I will confess that I have a cheap plastic Laughing Buddha replica on my dresser. When my daughter was three or four she found it outside and later gave it to me. Let me know what here is helpful. I am finding it important to get feedback about the clarity of my explanations. Throat chakra awareness and all. :@) Breathing the Buddha Belly, Gena
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SuZett Estell (SuZie Coyote,
8/26/98 10:41:42 AM)
Wow, Gena! I was contemplating a response, but you covered all the bases! SuZ
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Ditto (crotalus,
8/26/98 11:20:13 AM)
Mucho delicisio - mas Jung y Yoga, por favor.
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Devin McGuire (gardenweasel,
8/26/98 12:15:16 PM)
(Erased by gardenweasel at Sep 21 1998 2:54PM)
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Frank (Frank40,
8/28/98 3:34:52 AM)
Dear Gena, Namaste to you. Thanks for your really helpful response to my belly troubles! I notice that this pain has hung around for a while, with some odd stops and starts, so it has slowed me down a bit yoga-wise this week. I am not sure where the psoas muscle is, but now will try to find out. I will try pranayama exercises and be attentive to what is happening there. As for the laughing Buddha, well, I can picture it perfectly. I love to walk and when I lived in the bay area and would visit SF I recall seeing the greatest laughing Buddha ever at a shop on Grant Avenue. It was big, and looked really happy, as was the laugh! And, your response and explanations are crystal clear to me. Thanks Gena! Wishes, Frank
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Dad aften said, 'engage brain before
putting mouth in gear' (gardenweasel,
9/10/98 10:22:19 AM)
Having reread and reconcidered my post(75), I want to apologize for not being more thoughtful in my responce. I'd intended something short and kinda sweet, but to me it reads rather short and sour. So, I'm sorry about that. There are a few activities in which i've become more aware of that mysterious psoas rascal. i think that i experience it most when I moving a large pile of leaves with my legs,kinda like walking in thigh deep water. That too, is another time I seem to use that muscle, is when I'm walking in deep water or when I walk backwards for some distance. I've heard some rolfers really like getting their hands ahold of it.
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THE Surface Muscle Book (crotalus,
9/28/98 11:04:36 AM)
Visualizing Muscles: A New Ecorché Approach to Surface
Anatomy by J. Cody. Muscles, tendons and fascia have been painted on the model; 9 color and 215 B/W photos provided, many with the male figure in motion. Full frontal male nudity is also a feature and is a curiosity in the inverted poses. An écorché is a "flayed figure." Each of the B&W photos is presented both painted and unpainted. A fascinating and outstanding book for the yoga enthusiast, bodyworker and/or artist.
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Moral Outrage (SuZie Coyote,
9/28/98 1:42:57 PM)
I used the above book in teaching Neuromuscular massage therapy. Can you believe I actually had a fight with the school owner/director over the book...seems the frontal pictures offended his morality and it was upsetting to some of the younger students. (The model's willy was showing.) Hrrumph. I quit teaching there, shortly afer the incident. Imagine any bodyworker (chiropracter) who has trouble viewing the human body au natural. It's no wonder we're all worked up over Willie's Willy. SuZ
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
9/28/98 2:51:44 PM)
Imagine if Monica had taken B&W photos... "But Bill I just want one for my scrapbook." Gena
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
9/29/98 9:57:52 AM)
I suspect Monica is saving the pics for the book, Laps of Power. Monica strikes me as a sympathetic character but I hardly know her (that sounds like Slick) as I've managed to miss most of the story by avoiding TV and newspapers for the last few years (both mediums make it harder to be a good citizen). However, it is impossible to miss the drift in this document. See <5.46> for Erich on three ways to do standing pose sequences and on listening to your inner teacher.
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Devin McGuire (gardenweasel,
10/5/98 10:53:57 AM)
Howdy, dear yoga buddies, I need some experiential help from ya'll. Recently I've been using the exhale to come out of strong standing postures,trikonasana,parsvokonasana, and such. Would some of you be willing to try lifting up out of these with an exhale and then share w/ me your experiences of doing so?
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
10/5/98 8:26:24 PM)
Seems like someone else was trying that,anybody remember? or was it you Devin? I'm willing to check it out. I'll let you know how it goes.
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
10/6/98 5:53:02 PM)
Hello all. Can anyone advise me on doing asanas during menstration? Shandor advised us today to do nothing with a capital N for the first three days of a womans cycle. He said there were other ways to learn i.e. watching. Looks like I'll sit on the sidelines for the next three days. It will be tough for me. A test of patience and the ability to trust my teacher and the old writings. Namaste, Alix
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Call Me Suspicious, but..... (SuZie Coyote,
10/6/98 8:38:41 PM)
I have read some of the injunctions against doing certain poses while menstruating. I've never read that one should do Nothing (capital N). I've read that women should avoid inversions. For years, I practiced any and all the asanas I cared to do both on and off "the rag" with absolutely no adverse effects. I didn't know there were rules against it, you see. If anything, my yoga perked me up and energized me during these times. I have read some really silly stuff behind these injunctions; how the blood will back up and your "pipes" will get congested and a lot of other nonsensical ideas. But I've seen no research or technical data to back up a woman's supposed "risk" in performing asanas during mensturation. Lightning didn't strike me for practicing "on the rag." I did not get any "female disorders." I didn't shrivel up, cause bad luck to my tribe, get pimples, become weak or otherwise have problems attempting practice during my "unclean" times. I asked Erich about this and (not to put words in his mouth - but I think I've got this right) he said, quietly, "I think you should listen to your own body and experiment. Read the material; make your own decision." That's all he said. I saw a tee-shirt at a biker's convention that said "Never trust anything that bleeds for days and doesn't die." This is the common cultural response here (and throughout the world) to menstruation. So back to my title....call me suspicious, but, I don't buy doing Nothing by way of asanas during my menstruation. Now, every religious and spiritual tradition I know of has problems with female menstruation and all sorts of taboos surrounding this very normal female function. The asana restrictions are taught by teachers who learned them from their teachers, etc. The original masters (and only practicioners for thousands of years) were men. I'd ask my teacher where the injunction to do "Captinal N, Nothing" came from and try to track it down yourself. Was it Patanjali's Yoga Sutras? The Vedas? Where did it come from and how the heck did that person (probably male) know? So, maybe the sages had a divine revelation that said women can't do asanas during menstruation. That would be an article of faith (that I don't share.) Or maybe its just more of the same kind of authoritarian stuff that often accompanies just about every spiritual practice - directed at a scary thing (menstruation) that the founders of the practice did not understand. Here's an example for you. I used to teach Massage Therapy. One thing I learned (and that probably many of you believe - I used to) is that "massage flushes toxins out of the body." Sounds good.wisdom passed down from teacher to teacher. But studies have shown this to be patently untrue. Researchers have measured toxins in blood, feces, and urine before during, immediately after, ten-minutes after, a half-hour after and a couple of hours after massage, and found no appreciable differences. If toxins are being flushed, researches finally asked, where are they going? Yet, when I showed the research to the director of the massage school, he refused to change the curriculum, because "everybody knows massage flushes toxins." Now massage does a lot of great things for the body..but there is no evidence that it flushes toxins. I'm sure I'm going to have all sorts of teachers jump me on this one, predicting dire consequences for ignoring the "wisdom of the past" and what the hell do I know anyway, I'm a fledgling, etc. But I will continue to do whatever asanas that infinite mind tells me to do, whenever I get the inspiration to do them. SuZett
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As an example: (SuZie Coyote,
10/6/98 9:00:47 PM)
Mary Shatz, a yoga "researcher" has written about the
"dangers" of performing certain asanas during menstruation. She talks of "postulations" and "ancient wisdom" but I find not a shred of research backing up her assertions. She goes so far as to instill the fear (nowhere backed up with facts or references) that doing inversions during menstruation can lead to "vascular congestion," collapsed uterine veins, and increased menstrual bleeding. Again, none of these dire warnings are backed up with any real data. However, anyone who would feel more comfortable having someone provide them with a prescription (and I don't mean this in a bad light), I'd recommend reading Dr. Shatz and making your own decision. I believe her one valid claim may be in insisting that one should avoid certain asanas because of "ancient wisdom." Again, that's a "faith thing," not a "science thing" (as intimated) but valid to some people (not me. I trust my own experience and bodily responses.) SuZ
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
10/7/98 10:15:34 AM)
SuZ, Yogamama, Wow! This dialogue is great. I am so glad this conversation has opened up. I too have had the very same questions as SuZ and Yogamama. As I continue to shed my Iyengar skin (I took Iyengar classes weekly from an Iyengar fundamentalist for two and a half years) these menstruation taboos will fall away as well. Anything coming out of the Iyengar system, as is the case with Mary Shatz "ancient wisdom" (see "dangers" reference in above post) should put into context. B.K.S. Iyengar has chosen to continue teaching yoga from a domination paradigm, a patriarchal system, a male point of view, and with a fear of womankind and the intuition that is often attributed to woman. IMHO, Iyengar's contribution to yoga is about osteo, muscular and neural allignment of the body and he discourages intuitive listening to Infinite Mind. It seems that at one level Erich's approach to yoga and the Iyengar system are at odds. Since Erich honors the inner wisdom rather than the faith, fundamentalist approach, I choose that path. Which is why I love the aphorism, "Question Authority." But lets change it to read "Question Authority, Breathe, and Listen to Infinite Mind!" Thanks for the insights, SuZ. Looking forward to meeting you too. Gena
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
10/7/98 10:18:24 AM)
(Erased by crotalus at Oct 7 1998 4:45PM)
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
10/7/98 10:27:09 AM)
Is there a way for me to fix these double posts?
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
10/7/98 7:46:55 PM)
Not sure what the deal is on double posts anymore - just click on the post number and you can erase or hide it. Or you can ask one of the hosts to hide it - like I just did. Seems strange to me that in view of the fact that most yoga practitioners in America are women, a good hard look has not been taken at the issue. I believe you've doped it out and only the women runners seem to have a real problem because of reduced body fat. I'm personally a fan of the menses - it's part of that "show me female" stuff that is so satisfying to get from a woman. But then I'm probably a bit weird. I've even got a redwinged tattoo to prove it.;-)
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
10/11/98 2:58:55 PM)
Thanks for the feed back Ladies. I knew that you would
have an opinion on this! I would like to expand a bit
on what Shandor said as I was in a hurry when I wrote
earlier. First of all, he used to advise women to do
what they wanted except maybe inversions, and since he
is very influential at the Yoga Center that is how most
of us have been practicing for years, without any side
effects that I know of. He said that after thirty some
years of practice and the women he has known through
this time that he is observing long term effects that
he thinks are related to not following the warnings
from the texts. He named tumors, histarectomy, etc..He
said he knew that some of us would question this as
being sexist.
I think that he is coming from a point of view of
caring and believes what he said is true. He recommends
slowing the practice down for three days before
gradually, then resting for the first three days, then
gradually adding poses for three days. I did sit out
for two days of the work shop and found, as Shandor had
suggested, that I retained what he taught and was able
to incorperate it into my practice when I began again.
There is certainly a chance here to develop patients,
ritual to honor your feminine nature, and a chance to
do inner work( I sat in lotus for the time I would have
been practicing). This issue also brings up the subject
of attachment. I was suprised at how strongly I reacted
to the thought of giving up some of my asana. I don't
care if a man could be physically stronger than me
because he works more days. We all know there is more
than the physical body involved here. It could be
helpfull to slow down and work in other areas. This is
not a competition after all, or is it?
Will I stick with this? Do I believe it is best
for me? How will it effect my teaching during my cycle?
What will I advise my students in this matter? There
are a lot of questions to be answered here for me so I
will be investigating on all levels.
If Erich or anyone else has any more input it
would be greatly appreciated.
Namaste, Alix
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
10/12/98 8:36:31 AM)
Alix, I'm back from the yoga journal conference and WOW! It will be held next year again at Estes Park and if you or anyone else can, GO! I'd like to get to the core of the menses issue for myself. I don't mind resting or taking breaks from asana. In fact I usually do slow down before and during menses, partly because I feel tired and a bit heavy. But I do asana, any time of the month, because I want to do it, not because someone tells me I should or shouldn't. The problem I have is with where the authority lies. I believe you speak true that Shandor has good motives and intentions (Do No Harm!) However, I wonder why he feels women cannot be encouraged to become aware internally and listen to what is right for them. Why does he feel responsible for their choices. It is one thing to provide information and yet another to dictate. This weekend I engaged with SuZ and a woman from Victoria named Karen, in some very difficult but introspective discussions about what it means to be female in our culture. How does one maintain internal integrity in the face of cultural authoritarianism. I also participated in a controversial discussion about the future direction of the Yoga Journal and I took classes from teachers who provided a very non-authoritarian approach to teaching. I came away with a re-inforcement of my thinking that authoritarianism is antithetical to the essence and the spirit of yoga. The male side of me wants to stomp out authoritarianism (ironic), the softer female side of me just wants to choose "other" non-authoritarian approaches and trust that the still small voice within folks will be heard by them. The results of choosing other often means lower income, slower pace, non-traditional education, sanity within oneself but perceived by others to be non-conformist, perhaps even weird etc. Ideally I'd like to walk the middle path and be able to communicate and interface effectively with all in this diverse world. Why is it so difficult for me to choose "other" and feel okay about it? I discovered on my drive out of the Rockies yesterday that I have deep feelings of inadequacy that have been fed by authoritarian yoga teachers of the past. A have harbored a deep belief that at the core I am not okay. I started to let that go yesterday but as I know, it is only a start because I will have to continue to nurture that still small awareness of my essential core of goodness. I will tell this story now because it is time. I took a class from Manouso Manos almost 3 years after I started taking up yoga. I came into this class with a lot of silent questions about things I was feeling. But because I had accepted as gospel truth the teaching of my very authoritarian and fundamentalist teachers, my feelings of badness, hurtness, etc. could only be my own inadequacy. I WAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. This was emphasized over and over again. Correction after correction did not fix my badness. I continued to suffer. During the class I took with Manouso, I had a heart opening experience for the first time in my yogic life. It felt good and scary at the same time. Three months later I took an intensive from Manouso in Minnesota. During this intensive he yelled at a student for trying to get out of a propped and strapped Supta Virasana because she was in pain, a reclining torchure posture (my characterization). I listened to her cry quietly as she acquiesed to his commanding demeanor. Stupidly, I continued to believe in this teacher anyway. They call it brainwashing for a reason! At the end of the intensive I wanted to give him a hug and let him know that I valued his teaching. (Someone hand me a barf bag, please.) As he was hugging a myriad of other people, he walked right by me and made a comment to another person that it didn't make sense to hug someone who's heart wasn't open. (That statement linked us karmically.) BTW, Manouso would easily have passed any kind of yoga standard, met any kind of yoga guidelines, he was after all one of Iyengar's cronies and senior teachers. He was later found out to have sexually abused several of his students, with and without their permission. At the time he was married with twin children. So I have learned to think for myself. To be disappointed again and again by gurus and teachers and to finally say that the truth does not lie in the words or the personality of another. My frustration these days is the depth of my karmic reactivity to authoritarianism coming from my deep desire to stomp it out. This screams of "ego". Conditioning has taught me that it is dangerous (to my ego and my survival) to live as if authoritarianism doesn't matter. As a result I carefully control my behaviour so that it is acceptable in the cultural paradigm in which I depend. It's amazing how much of this goes back to "school". Beware, Yoga conferences can be revolutionary for one's psyche. I definitely have a renewed revolution going on within me as a result. From meeting Bob, SuZ, Karen, Victor VanKooten, Marsha Wenig, Erich, and many others I feel as if I am not alone in my quiet yet deeply profound revolution. I have this very strong image of being held by and holding a group of people who ultimately support my truest inner expression. For this and much more I have deep gratitude. Tears of gratitude. I know I am coming back to mySelf. I honor the light in you, Gena
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Tired but happy... (SuZie Coyote,
10/12/98 5:10:12 PM)
Gena! Thanks for the stories. It was great meeting you. You are wonderfully bright, thoughtful, deep and open (as well as quite beautiful on the outside as well!). Don't ever let anyone try to convince you otherwise. Bob and I really enjoyed spending time with you. It doesn't "make sense to hug someone who's heart [isn't] open"??? Geeze...there's a spiritual guy for you. Jesus hung out with the drunks and tax collectors, saying they needed his help more than the hoity-toity. Seems to me that saving hugs for those already "enlightened" is a self-serving to the max! And a guy forcing a woman to lie in a painful, bound position is (to my way of thinking) kind of sick, if you catch my drift..... I want to reflect a little before I put my thoughts about the conference to words. I will say that I was delightfully surprised at the general lack of "guru-ization" of of the event. Every one of the teachers I met during my classes were down-to-earth and supportive. Only once did I get a feeling of "I'm more spiritual than you" from a presenter and, well, all of us have bad days now and again. Bob and I had a great drive back from Estes Park through the mountains on back roads. I enjoyed watching the sun through the golden aspen trees, as he tore around the curves in his little white speed-machine. Again, great meeting you, Gena. SuZett
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
10/13/98 9:11:31 AM)
Gena sez: "(I) have harbored a deep belief that at the core I am not okay. I started to let that go yesterday but as I know, it is only a start because I will have to continue to nurture that still small awareness of my essential core of goodness." Sounds to me like you got your money and time's worth out of the Estes Park experience. Dealing with the shadow material in ourselves and others is always challenging. Many offer "authoritarian" recipes that seem more like shadow than light. Erich says "Keep nurturing and celebrating your awareness of your
essential core of goodness." Renunciation of the self is often at the core of the troubling recipes. As Ganga White pointed out in a dandy and most forthcoming conference discussion in Vichara, Inquiry Into Yoga, one must learn to navigate safely between the rocks of Ego and Renunciation. There is a new paradigm emerging amongst the Western Yoga Masters. They are saying to get some good advice on the processes and techniques (asanas, meditation, diet, creativity, service, self-trust,...) that lead to yoga and then go within. This "new" perspective has emerged from their life long experiences in studying and living the path of yoga upon which they embarked with a critical mind set (or developed along the way the hard way!). There is considerable diversity in their presentation of the new way but they seem to be discarding the irrelevant and often dangerous (to the self) dogma that has accumulated. I expect to see many thoughtful expositions of their personal perspectives in the next few years, particularly as yoga goes mainstream and the new crop of enquiring minds conditioned by Western culture try to get the "true - go within - yogic drift". There should be much to discuss and debate. >>Bob and I really enjoyed spending time with you.<< Aye. Always great to have your expectations met. We knew you from your writing, so our expectations were high. Thanks again for sharing here and in person.
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
10/14/98 10:26:35 AM)
Thank you for your post Gena. Just one more note
about Shandor's advise and that is that he told us we
had to decide for ourselves what to do . He didn't say
we couldn't practice.
I think your warnings about authoritarianism are
really valuable and I feel that looking inward for
guidance is the litmus test for any information one
gathers. To blindly follow is not acting with
discernment. I know that the traditional guru-disciple
role asks just that of the student. On the other hand
there is no need to reinvent the wheel! There are sure
to be morsels of wisdom in five thousand years of work.
Also I am attracted to the idea of lineage from one
teacher to another, giving me the ability to touch the
insight of long dead spiritual giants. I think it
requires a balancing act between ones own individual
path and the light that can be shone into the darkness
by the teachings of others. Just because they may have
been patriarchal and authoritarians does not make them
wrong in every respect. They were, of course, a product
of their environment just as we are of ours.
The conference sounds great. Maybe I could attend
next time. Tell us more about the pitfalls of
transending the self. Is there a difference between the
self and the ego in this instance? Isn't the true self
the core of goodness?
Namaste, Alix
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Sarah Stettler (starling,
10/14/98 11:36:45 AM)
I have heard the same thing about inversions during menstruation. I have a hard time believing the human body could be messed up by a simple change in position. Monkeys hang upside down all the time and they don't go sterile because of it. When I have bad cramps I hang upside down sometimes because it makes me feel better.
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
10/14/98 12:29:21 PM)
Yogamama, Not sure I understand your questions. Could you illuminate further if this response seems off? I am not sure I am transcending self or ego but rather sorting out the many parts of myself and re-organizing those parts so that they work together rather than fight amongst one another. I agree that the core of goodness lies in the deepest part of us. But to deny that I am also, albeit temporarily, flesh and bone, emotion and thinking would be to miss the point of this journey. I am uncomfortable with the notion of transcendance without grounding. To ground oneself is to enter into the fullness and truth, no matter how dark, of one's life as body, feelings and thought, to acknowledge and yoke the strenth of these aspects in order that one may fly. Feet planted deeply in the earth, matter, darkness, then reach for the light! Part of my meditation and waking is to acknowledge and express gratitude to my physical, emotional and mental selves so that they willingly come along on the journey. Yoga means "to yoke or to bind." With yoga and meditation as tools, I am yoking the power of ego as physical will, emotional will and mental will through compassion and love (ie., the heart center) in order to more completely manifest the will of my soul on this human journey. "The Man Who Listens to Horses" is a really good book to illuminate how far behind we are in the West in understanding what it means "to yoke". This man, as a boy in California, found a way to befriend horses and communicate with them and as a result, he gained their full co-operation as work animals. No physical restraining, torchure, punishment or pain. No breaking of their will. Simple understanding and communication. My mantra for two months now has been "Let my will be the Will of my Soul." The other night as I prepared for sleep and opened to compassion and gratitude, which went out to embrace first my smaller known world and then the earth, (I found I was directed to Kosovo interestingly since I don't even know much about it), then to the universe. It was quite a trip to hold the universe in a compassionate embrace and something I would have never ventured to try before I met Erich, as this exercize was inspired by a brief meditation he led us into on Sunday morning. Anyway, I had a two hour initiation and energetic annointing that completely blew me away. I did not feel shaken at all. Instead, I felt so connected that I stayed in the experience and just let it happen. Talk about phenomena, particulary kinesthetic but also auditory. I was surrounded by Presence(s), other than my husband, Who were preparing me for . . . something. They kept calling me to open deeper and allow for more. I have an idea that what happened is a part of the pattern of how I am taught. First the initiation occurs and then I go to work hacking through the brambles of self until I find my way back to this place. Similar patterns have happened in the past but this has been the most powerful. The whole experience was beyond words or even comprehension. My abilities to contract into dark places and expand into light have vastly increased of late. And it is this I suggest is the point of the human journey. Not release of the ego, but yoking of it. What is yet to come, on my particular journey, I do not know. I prefer to know what I know and steer clear of beliefs. I love the idea of beginner's mind, which is why the authoritarian guru thing, as it has been genreally practiced in the West, doesn't work for me. Ironically the most powerful teachers in my life have not put forth the idea that they had released their ego, broken their will or succeeded at some sort of yoga game. This is not a YOKE! So what do you tHInK????????????????????????? Yoking with you in the light, Gena
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Hacking through the brambles (gardenweasel,
10/14/98 3:23:10 PM)
Hi Gena, All, Your second to last paragragh reminded me of<7.13>
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
10/14/98 4:11:48 PM)
Gardenweasal, Makes me wonder...we are saying the same thing...No? "... Yonder way is clearing. This path has lead me near enough To hear the thickets' thorny call, A dare, To clear my way through. ..." I haven't paid much attention to the poetry posts, thank you for pointing it out. Gena
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
10/14/98 8:58:21 PM)
>>Not release of the ego, but yoking of it.<< I think you're tapping into the truth. I've noticed that every time I flatten my ego, it bounces back stronger and more integrated - if that's "bigger ego," so be it. So, like you, here I remain tacking between the rocks of renunciation and the shoals of ego & habit. Now, if the wind would just hold steady, I'd know where I might be headed "on my particular journey." Samadhi is just "another" beneficial altered state:For some reason the Ergotropic path is seen as less "spiritual" than the Trophotropic in the "civilized" world. Must be why we insist on sticking the Ergotropic fans (those who dare to exceed creativity - the shamans among us) in asylums or jail.
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Starling (starling,
10/14/98 10:53:00 PM)
Well that chart is a good explanation for the relation of creativity/artists and madness.
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
10/15/98 7:00:10 AM)
The illustration is very interesting. I do so enjoy diagrammed concepts, even if they are sometimes limited by two dimensions. I'd like to see this one as a half sphere. I know I'm not exclusively Ergo or Tropho. Thanks. Gena
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
10/16/98 1:19:31 PM)
Call me square, or is that what you call yourself Gina?, but I am enjoying my work on releasing my ego. Maybe that's because mine is so big. I find it helpful to not identify with the results of my labor, but to release that to a higher source. I find it helpful in my dealings with people also. I am more open and loving when I don't get caught up in labels like my husband, my children, I can cherish them for what they are, not what they are in relation to me. To me, releasing the ego means believing that I am a part of something bigger, which doesn't come easy beecause I was raised as an atheist. BTW Devin, I did try coming out of poses on the exhalation. It is difficult to say how much is habit but I didn't like it too much. I didn't feel grounded in the feet, a general lack of energy flowing. What was your experience? Have a good one, Alix
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
10/16/98 3:40:14 PM)
Alix, Call me old fashioned but . . . the danger with characterizing it as "releasing the ego" makes it sound like you are no longer responsible for your actions and relationships. Those people you mention are your children, you gave birth or adopted them and you are still married to the guy. If it helps you to think about releasing the ego instead of yoking it, I don't see a problem. Thinking about it this way, however, does not release you from your responsibilities to these people as dictated by your relationships to them. I am assuming that this way of thinking is simply helpful to you, however I find that I am concerned for people who become exploit victims of yoga practitioners who seem to disregard their moral responsibilities to others. Moral responsibility is directly linked to relationship. What I do with my husband is not what I do with my children or my students, neighbors, UPS man or anyone else. It is a special relationship in my life. I worked hard in my thirties to get past the "ego is bad, release ego" thinking that I was being taught by yoga literature and teachers. I believe that what I was being taught was a fundamental misunderstanding of how I think yoga is meant to interact with ego. Since then I have learned from others that my view has validity. Ego is essential for human development and is good and important. Once developed, ego needs to learn its place and I find this is best done by winning its confidence and delegating to its strengths. I like to think that Infinite Mind is managing the whole mess of subpersonalities, ego, various bodies, which make up my humanness and that it is my job to respond to where I am being led using discernment and intuition to sort that out. My esoteric healing teacher notes to us that the soul doesn't really have a clue about how a human survives through this life and is learning that by incarnating into a human body. The soul needs ego in order to develop a healthy human personnae, and to accomplish its work here. All opinions expressed here are mine. Peace, Gena
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
10/17/98 5:28:12 PM)
I was looking at my yoga conference materials today and was reminded of Judith Lasater's keynote speech, in which she used the word "disidentification" to describe what a yogi/meditator does with thoughts, ego, body, etc. I learned this week that "satsang" means "in the company of truth." I rather like that. Namaste, Gena
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
10/19/98 10:50:10 AM)
Dearest Gena, I doubt that we have any disagreement
here, just a matter of semantics. When first introduced
to these ideas of disidentifying with certain parts of
my whole being, all of which are needed on the journey,
I didn't understand how I could love my children and
take care of my obligation to them yet not think of
them as more loveable than other children because they
are mine. I didn't try to make anything happen, but
through my practice I have caught glimpses of a love so
pure, so powerful that identification has nothing to do
with it. I do love them more and imagine I always will,
perhaps in part because we know each other so well.
according to Georg Feuerstein in his book "Yoga",
Karma-yoga, the path of selfless action, came about as
a result of too many people abandoning their
obligations as householders, in the middle of the first
millenium,BCE, in order to follow the path of
renunciation.
We tend to hold people to tightly I think, fearing
that we will loose them, which of course we will. I
know that I am only with my family for a short while,
nothing lasts for ever, so I try to savor every
wonderful moment and know that the hard parts will pass
quickly as well. If you love someone, set them free, as
the song goes, free,free,set them free. Don't worry
Gena, I'm not about to shurk my obligations to my
children or do the UPS man. I doubt that I will loose
myself along this journey. In fact my sence of self is
being strengthened, so like you I geuse I am yoking my
ego to my spiritual path. Whatever, words sometimes
just get in the way. Namaste, Alix
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Paul Falkenstein (PaulFalk,
10/19/98 11:21:19 AM)
Namaste Everyone, Yogamama, I agree with your points about ego and attachment. One of the hardest ideas for me to grasp being married to an Indian woman, an outstanding asana teacher and Yoga practitioner her entire life, was the removal of ego and attachment. It reminds me of the discusisons I was involved with here on the board surrounding the Yamas and Niyamas. When you have come into a love so pure and directly from the Divine Source, and you surrender your ego, than the concept of love as we know it is broken down to its fundamental and basic elements. My wife and I have three beautiful children, as well as 400 Yoga students. Her approach and philosophy states that when we are drawn into that Divine Love, when we actually merge with the pure Source, than your love of everybody and everything is equal, so there is no distinction on how I view my spouse, children, and students. This can only be done by surrendering the ego and removal of all attachment to "I love my spouse and children on this level and everyone on that level." If this is not your intention or your path, that's okay. But this is what Bhakti and Karma Yoga teach. Merging with the Divine Source and allowing the pure vibration of love to be felt equally strongly by everyone around us. Does this give me the right to love another woman from a sexual perspective. No, of course not. But that doesn't mean I have to treat them with any less repsect, dignity, honor, and decency that should be afforded every living thing on this planet. I have a monogomous relationship with my spouse, who for me, is the embodiment of the Divine Mother while we are together in this life. Do I place all women in this category? No. But the concept of removing the ego and attachment allows me to love all equally without discernment or discrimination as to who gets more of my love. Classic and purist Yoga, I may realize, but nonetheless, my humble opinion. These are very unique concepts for me since I spent years training as a Naval Aviator where my primary job was the destruction and elimination of life in what was suppose to be a protecting and defending role. However, my yoga life prevailed so I have chosen to surrender my ego for the intentions of God and let the love flow. Om Shanti Paul
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
10/19/98 12:58:12 PM)
Reader, Yogamama, Paul, Semantically speaking, how are the following the same or different and can you see that a novice in yoga could misinterpret some of these resulting in a not so good outcome? (It has happened.) 1. Release your ego 2. Release attachment to the ego 3. Release your idea of ego 4. Release the ego 5. Surrender the ego 6. Surrender the ego to the will of Infinite Mind 7. Disidentify with ego 8. Identify with Soul 9. Yoke the ego 10. Allow the ego to be yoked by the soul 11. Surrender the ego to Iyengar (my personal favorite) ;-) The above statements are not identical to one another. However, some are very similar and could be interchangeable, I think. If one has a conceptual idea then it behooves them to carefully choose the words to describe it, and remember "Whatever, words sometimes just get in the way." (Yogamama) Amen! But we can still try? And trying is part of linking the soul and the human thinking. It is worth it. I personally like Erich's approach of letting the experience be the guide, which is very similar to my creative writing teacher's demand to "don't tell, show" In Peace or Om Shanti or whatever, Gena
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
10/19/98 4:10:10 PM)
These recent posts reminded me to have another look at some brief discussion of the 8-Fold Path that SuZ and I did for the Mining Company Holistic Health site we guided for a year. You know the stuff: The Four Noble Truths Life is suffering We suffer because of our desires and attachments To get rid of suffering, get rid of desire The way that will work for most of us is the Eight-Fold Path Eight-Fold Path: Right Understanding Right Thinking Right Speech Right Attitude Right Livelihood Right Effort Right Mindfulness Right Concentration I have since learned to think about this "renunciate approach" with a more critical mind and things are getting slightly clearer (ego is more transparent or integrated? nah, someone just brought me a mirror so I can see around it, sorta). I have yet to do the Right Concentration piece and sum it all up, guess I better get on it. Have a look and give us some feedback for a tune-up as we wrap - even managed to work a little Erich into Right Effort: "Your job will be that of yielding to the flow. Traditionally, this has been called "surrender." It is the active choice for "Thy Will be done." It is the most intelligent, fulfilling thing to do. You surrender your best sense of what to do or not do, and instead trust in the flow of Being. This is when yoga becomes more than practice and practices - and becomes your way of life. Then you realize there is no such thing as practice! Never was. There is only the real thing, ever - and always."
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I'm Here in Spirit (SuZie Coyote,
10/19/98 4:18:18 PM)
Great conversation! I haven't contributed much lately, as work and family have sucked up all my time, but I am listening! SuZ
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
10/19/98 4:25:31 PM)
"Yielding to the flow" sounds like a wonderful way to inspire yoking or surrender of the ego if that is what happens? Yielding = to slow down and observe. The Flow . . .sounds like the name of a fun amusement park ride. Perhaps phrases that inspire playfulness and a sense of fun get to the core of the truth with greater ease. I know that is true for me. Thanks, Bob. Gena
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
10/19/98 10:04:23 PM)
I agree with SuZ, this is great reading! Thanks everyone... and hello! My computer has been down the last few days, so haven't been here, but a saint in my class offered to fix it for me, did, and now I'm back. Thanks, Lou. I had a terrific time at the Yoga Journal Conference. It was fun meeting you, Gena, and many many others. I thought it was a very successful event, well-done and meaningful. I talk about the "traffic helicopter" a lot, and the fact that it makes "ground-level sense" to cast your attention beyond your best reasonings and choose to, instead, ask for and listen to Guidance. The analogy has given me the courage to muster up the willingness to do what hasn't always made sense to the me here at ground-level. This is the same as yielding to the Flow, or requesting "Thy Will be done." But what one finds when one merges, when one softens and listens and dares to do as ones deepest feelings prompt you to do, is not the disappearance of self, but rather the expansion! And here I'm mixing metaphors, hope that's okay, works for me... when the wave relaxes into itself and feels the depths of the ocean being the truest thing about what it is, it doesn't disappear, and its sense of self doesn't disappear. It expands, it gets bigger. Its sense of self enlarges! It now disidentifies with "wave only," a mis-identification or inaccurate sense of self, and therefore loses its sense of smallness because it is now experiencing itself as ocean also. It doesn't stop being the wave, though, because all along the ocean has been being itself as waves! The only thing that changes is the misidentification... and that changes everything. What gets released is the misidentification... and what's left is the real Identity, that which you have been all along. And at that point you're not yielding... there's no small sense of self to do the yielding... There's only the Flow being Itself as everything that is, you being yourself with less and less inhibition. I like talking about yielding, though, because it takes small mind out of the drivers seat... or, maybe better, it makes it clear that small mind/ego/ground-level view is aware of its limitations and is voluntarily reaching beyond its current operating parameters. It makes ground-level sense to yield to the aerial view. There's no overcoming the ego, there's only its natural dissolution in the obviousness of its nothingness!
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
10/20/98 9:19:28 AM)
All this sent me scurrying for Laura Huxley's This Timeless Moment to recover the words of her husband Aldous. Imagine my chagrin when I discovered my conditioning had blotted out the Christian connection. The words were a fav of Aldous and actually were written by his grandfather T. H. Huxley: "Science seems to me to teach, in the highest and strongest manner, the great truth which is embodied in the Christian concept of the entire surrender to the will of God. Sit down before the fact like a little child, and be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abysses Nature leads or you shall learn nothing. I have only begun to learn content and peace of mind since I have resolved at all risks to do this." Laura is also persuasive along these lines in her response in an interview with Bruce Eisner (founder of the Island Group and author of a useful book on the heart opening drug, MDMA): B. E.: What are some of the most fundamental recipes for living that you have learned during your life? Could you pass some of those along to our readers? L.H.: Among those recipes, I learned that one always should acknowledge the ego, because it is real, and yet one should not take it too seriously. B. E.: You should acknowledge it but not take it seriously? L. H.: Not try to eliminate it - kill the ego as they say - it just gives it more strength. But instead, know that it is there, it is part of us, but by far, not all of us - we are immense, we are a universe. Our ego is a little star, even an important, lovely, little star, but it is not all of us. There are certain basic principles: 1) Respect your body 2) Focus your mind 3) Love your heart and cooperate with anyone who wishes to do the same. Aldous weighed in with: "Our business is to wake up. We have to find ways in which to detect the whole of reality in the one illusory part which our self-centered consciousness permits us to see." See <5.63> for an excerpt from This Timeless Moment about Laura's encounter with Krishnamurti.
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Starling (starling,
10/20/98 1:44:08 PM)
Bob, I think that principle #3 is way off- "To get rid of suffering, get rid of desire". Lack of desire for anything is personally one of my most notable syptoms of depression. Desire is central to pleasure and to purpose. If you have no desire, you might as well be dead.
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
10/20/98 3:06:35 PM)
Yes mam'. Renunciate moralities are like that.
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
10/20/98 6:28:15 PM)
Welcome back Frank. You agree with me? That's a first,
ha ha. I love that " surrender the ego to Iyengar". I
can tell you have a real love for that man, Gena. Good
point, to speek , write more carefully. I have thought
there is a hidden meaning to the get rid of desire
thing. Maybe it's similar to Krishnamurti talking about
destroying everything. The path of ones life remains.
One couldn't walk down any path without desire.
I love the wave-ocean way of thinking, Erich.
Would that be considered a metephor to describe an
aspect of yoga philosophy? Or your own philosophy only?
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
10/21/98 1:00:03 AM)
Yes. I consider the wave/ocean metaphor central to yoga philosophy. Mind you, I am not a yoga scholar. I'm not quoting anyone or representing anything, really. But, as far as yoga goes, the word means "joining" and "union." And I've always thought this was interesting because union and joining do not mean the same thing. I go into this a bit in the posted interview, but quickly... yoga is, foremost, a STATEMENT of union/oneness/God being All, and it is also the many various MEANS involved in arriving at that realization. The fact that such a word exists points to the phenomenon that people do tend to feel cut-off, separate and alone, discreet, and that at some point a breakthrough occurred where the veil was lifted and the biggerness was experienced. The wave/ocean analogy points to the central theme in a very easy-to-grasp sort of way. It's about the wave waking up to the fact that it is not an independent, self-created entity, but is the entire ocean in specific expression. To my understanding, it's not any more complex than that. I use the word "ego" to denote the deluded wave, one that thinks it exists on its own, that it is somehow self-created or self-existent. And I use the word "Individuality" to denote the wave that has awakened to the fact that it is, really, the entire ocean being itself as that specific wave. The wave doesn't join with the ocean through yogic practices, but wakes up to the already-existing fact. The fundamental idea behind all the practices is not to change or modify who you are, but to let go of, not believe in anymore or erase (I guess you could say destroy) all the mistaken inaccurate self-conceptions SO THAT THE ALREADY-EXISTING REALITY CAN REGISTER WITH YOU. You don't change or become different, you become who you always were. And this is great! Because you don't really have to do anything to be what you already are. No time or process is required to sink into the experience. It's not lifetimes or ten thousand salutations or prostrations away. It's a thought away! Now, with regard to desire... this is my take on it... and I wrestled with this concept for a long time, hearing that desire was bad, the cause of suffering etc. and so whenever there was even the smallest speck of desire arising I squelched it, thinking I was doing the right thing, and ended up getting ill, being mildly depressed, not motivated, and extremely low energy. All this in spite of tremendous spiritual interest.. or because of! This is what I now think: Desire is not bad... right desire is essential... but from ground-level you can't know what you really want! and so whatever you desire from ground-level is likely to not be as satisfying as you'd like it to be. The trick is to let go of what you think you want... sink into the feeling of peace through meditation or a walk in the mountains... and see what comes up. When the wave sinks into itself and begins to feel the energy that constitutes its presence, inevitably it will begin to feel the creative life force, oomph, or throbbing very alive movement of the ocean as its movement. When you sink into the feeling-tone of peace it's not that nothing happens, instead you find yourself being inspired into action. I think this is what Krishnamurti meant, he wasn't personally orchestrating his fulfillment or role. He was being the place where the creative movement of life flowed through.. and it looked like him being a teaching presence. From my understanding at the moment, the most intelligent desire is to want to know God's Will. This is the one desire that doesn't culminate in suffering. This is what you're doing when you ask for Guidance. When you ask for Guidance, your very desire is what gives permission for the Knowing to occur. The place to connect with it is in the stillness within. Your job will then be that of yielding to that movement in daily life, to flow with it (and this will be felt by you as your personal fulfillment) so that the wisdom and harmony of Infinite Mind can flow into obvious expression. More later. Thanks.
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
10/21/98 9:11:21 AM)
(Erased by earthworm at Oct 21 1998 9:11AM)
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
10/21/98 10:03:39 AM)
(Erased by earthworm at Oct 21 1998 10:03AM)
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
10/21/98 10:57:56 AM)
Taken at the conference, Erich in good form showing us stage one of spinal twist "with grist." Astounding is how I describe the experiential difference between my right and left twist attempt. In the pic below Erich aids a twistee.
We arrived to class Sunday morn before the sun was up. Erich wrestled for air wave audibility with the all too audible heating system, finally disabled with thermostatic control. We listened to the Rockie fierce wind whip the walls of Longhouse as we down dogged and saluted the rising sun.Most of us got down dogged out at the conference, this pose being an obvious favorite of yogi masters. Erich taught a wonderfully uncomplicated way of moving from down dog to up dog. "Cat tilt your way to up dog." My spine seemed to just roll into it. Very helpful! Gena
Erich, tell us more . . .
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Gena! (crotalus,
10/21/98 3:14:41 PM)
Nice work! So. How ya like these new skills? HTML this, eh? You are now officially, a CommunityWare Web Maven, able to scatter HTML in your wavelet wake with only Infinite Mind to second guess ya...
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
10/21/98 4:32:51 PM)
Love that ocean/wave metaphor Erich. You a diver too? Surf a bit I bet. There's nothin' quite like a 360° drift dive roll at 100' on a big 5000' wall - it goes from light blue to black with most shades in between - that'll integrate that ego for ya and bring desire into most clear perspective. Lot a ways to play your edges. I've been reading Jackie Stewart's 1971 racing diary (
Faster - dates me, I know) of his most miserable year in F1 - lost several friends and lost the Championship with a bad car, though he "had his moments" - see below). Stewart, a man that knows his edges, is now struggling with his own team in F1. "After the warm-up lap, Jackie thought there was something amiss with the brakes, and the mechanics found the brake balance bar was actually broken! No time to do anything about it of course, so he had to do the whole race - at Monaco, of all places - with front brakes only. Afterwards we took out the rear pads, and they were like new, untouched..." --Ken Tyrrell describing Stewart's flag-to-flag victory at Monaco 1971
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Err, make that 1970 for the bad year- fat
fingers! (crotalus,
10/21/98 4:36:52 PM)
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
10/21/98 9:35:04 PM)
Thanks, Erich, for the words of wisdom.
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To do is to be, to be is to do, do, be,
do, be, do, be, do (earthworm,
10/22/98 8:24:34 AM)
As I read post <117>, I noticed that I was able to understand more clearly the words because I have met Erich. This makes me think that the way I quest after my own spiritual longings has everything to do with kinesthetic intelligence. The words only take me so far. After meeting him I can put Erich's words into a larger context of experience. Interesting, that by acknowleging the "meeting Erich experience" here and now, I notice that I can bring into the present, my experience of him two weeks ago, as it relates to the intention of his post. As I do this, I notice a growing awareness of my connection to the metaphorical ocean, so that even as I type this I am aware of an expanding sense of myself where my questions seem to dissolve and I simply Know. It makes time and space seem like nothing. The words Erich uses are like tasty bait. I am attracted to them and find myself then struggling to make sense of them, but now I can see that the "sense" comes in the experience and not in the intellectual understanding of the words. These are important lessons for me to groc. I have been struggling for a very long time with how to put myself out into the world of work in the context of the social and work paradigm in which we live. I feel the call to do something but when I go after that something, I find that I am repelled by the rules and reductionism of the system. Seems like K. could just be and not categorize what he was doing, but my little mind wants to say that he had it easy bein' a man and all. Someone to sweep the dirt, cook the meals so that he could live in the clouds. But I know that this very characterization is also reduction of the truth. That is is how I keep myself small and stay in control of my little world. Now I am wondering. Perhaps by hanging in the "Ocean of Knowing" while I go about my activities as a wave, I will find myself flow to the shore and out again with effortlessness. Just non-doing and doing. Enter guru children. I get so thrown off when my wee ones start their wild destructo activity because this illusion that is my house starts to look like an illusion of a dump!!! Which puts me back into my small mind and the ocean is forgotten again. There is no trick. To learn to be a wave which is also an ocean seems hard until I am there and can feel my bigness and it is easy and beautiful and right and good, until I am not there then it seems so far away and inaccesible and I forget what it is to be there and sometimes forget about the ocean altogether. ARGHHHHH!!!!!!! This wave needs to fold an ocean of laundry. Peace, Gena
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
10/22/98 12:45:15 PM)
Ho! (as they say with approval after hearing a profound prayer in the Sweat Lodges
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Interesting how so many... (SuZie Coyote,
10/23/98 11:07:04 AM)
Holy men are supported in their ethereal efforts by women. Mohammed was a prime example. It was his wife's money and influence which providing his forum (and look what's done to the muslim woman now). Yet, most religions, even to this day, refused to allow women to actually be in any position of real influence or to actively partake of the ethereal life style. I heard a "religious man" recently put it this way..."women make filthy priests and have the power to undo everything God has done." Hmmm. SuZ
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
10/23/98 11:50:59 PM)
Loved your photos up there, Gena.
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Time for an asanaic inversion of reality
(earthworm,
10/24/98 12:18:31 PM)
fear is trying to head off a major paradigm shift but I'm flowing with Infinite Mind at the controls. Perhaps that Operation fear-ectomy will be completed soon. Breathing into the solar plexus and feeling the heat. Namaste, aneG
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
10/26/98 4:01:53 PM)
If I may.... remember, fear happens where the ego is the weakest, at the point where clarity can most easily flow in. The trick is to relax with the intensity, feel yourself being breathed, enjoy the warmth, and be curious about what's (already) unfolding. Don't project and don't protect. You are always bigger than whatever the fear is about. Expand, soften, embrace and savor the transformation.
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
10/26/98 5:09:36 PM)
Yeah. Those of us who sometimes chase the edge of fear on our skis or motorcycles or climbing ropes know about this view. Yoga is slightly more forgiving (tell that to the back injury) I suppose, when "you come off." Dr. Hofmann (yeah, that Hofmann, the one with the "problem child") speaks to this general theme in an interview with Charles Grob in the current MAPS Journal (interview will be on-line next month). He recommends we revisit Huxley's twelve lectures given in San Franciso in 1959, called The Human Situation. Hofmann's account of his occasional fearful moment during his second and close acquaintance with his most famous creation is also instructive and apparently completely consistent with Erich's advice.
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earthworm (earthworm,
10/26/98 6:13:16 PM)
Yes you may. I didn't know "that fear happens where the ego is weakest, at the point where clarity can most easily flow in." I knew that it was my ego holding on, terrified of the ride but I hadn't made these other connections. They fit my experience, which has been mostly pleasant and i am feeling that this new paradigm may be okay. I feel as if these eyes are seeing with a changing lens and I like what I see. The pressure is off, taking one day at a time, success and failure are not issues anymore. I'll just let my life unfold. Another sarvangasana today and my spine untwisted, the shoulder changed a lot. In fact this is the least pain I've felt in a long time. I can feel my ego lurking wanting to grab on to some semblance of success. But I ask it to wait, just be for now. Oh, it is a hungry little bugger. Thanks, Gena
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
10/26/98 9:28:22 PM)
Beautiful!
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Suzanne LaForest (YogaSuz,
11/4/98 6:31:45 AM)
I just want to add something to Erich's comment about fear, as the subject came to my attention recently. I assist my yoga instructor with a Level II class. In the most recent class, the students were attempting backbends for the first time. Everyone was moaning and complaining about the poses, which were completely new to them. Supta Virasana was their least favorite pose of the evening by far. As it turns out, Supta Virasana is one of the favorite poses of my Level III class. Whenever we do it in class, everyone is eager to have another student stand on their legs and stretch them as deeply into the position as possible. It actually seemed odd to me to hear the complaints about the pose from these Level II's. So, I learned that we shouldn't always resist new things simply because they are hard the first time. I do believe that we feel weak the first few times we attempt a new pose (or a new undertaking in our lives), because we want to be perfect right away. We don't want to struggle with the new thing. It takes relaxation to allow yourself to be imperfect. Then, getting into the pose or entering into any new activity stops being a struggle and starts being an adventure. I find it ironic that allowing ourselves to be imperfect moves us toward mastery of a subject. To me, once I feel that I am mastering a pose, I find that I am no longer focused on being perfect, but simply experiencing the nuances of the pose. It seems that being a master of any area involves being relaxed about "mistakes" and feeling confident that they can be fixed. A master artist, for example, sometimes places paint in the wrong place but knows the tricks to correcting the error. A novice, however, will feel frustrated that the paint did not go exactly where she wanted it and will make a bigger mess, because she is moving out of frustration instead of confidence. I feel that this understanding of the learning process is helping me to move more quickly out of the fear stage and into the improvement stage with my asanas...and my life. Yoga itself gave me the courage to go through Yoga teacher training and not fear the inevitable frustration of being a new teacher. Namaste! Suzanne
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earthworm (earthworm,
11/4/98 11:18:17 AM)
Kind and gentle words for a kinder and gentler yoga practice (even though it may be hard physical work.) Very helpful post Suzanne. Thanks. Gena
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Backbends and fear (gardenweasel,
11/6/98 9:54:43 AM)
What is it about backbends that can so easily bring up fear? Is it moving into what we cannot see, moving into an unknown? <Altered Minds.37.322>
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earthworm (earthworm,
11/6/98 1:30:03 PM)
The cyber gate keeper for altered minds won't let me in. Says I don't have access. Anyway, Here is my take on backbends. I felt very blessed to be able to take two classes from Victor Van Kooten at the Yoga Conference. He made the interesting claim that although all yoga postures are well and good, backbends are the only asanas that bring real change. In one of Victor's classes following a meditation one member of the class was doing a very powerful upward dog. Victor said that meditating deeply would inspire deep backbending and invited us all do Urdva Dhanurasana (The Wheel?). It was so much easier to do after meditation. I truly felt myself securely ground through my feet and hands. All my other attempts at backbends followed the standard physical (warm-up) preparation of the body as taught by most of my teachers. But I never acheived the sense of ease I had after meditating. I found this experience very illuminating. Gena
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Devin McGuire (gardenweasel,
11/6/98 2:01:02 PM)
I've heard wonderful things about Victor and Angela's classes, the inner and outer bodies. One of my favorite yoga books "Yoga of the Heart" by Jenny Beeken, speaks very highly of them. Oh, I put that Altered Minds post into <7.62>
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lou kamer (swamiloulou,
11/8/98 9:52:34 AM)
when i first tried backbends, i was struck by how physically vulnerable i was. Not only is it a position that, as a upward-standing human i very rarely found myself in, but as i got into it, i found myself opening my entire torso and abdomen up to the outside world. there is no defense in "wheel" and that's part of the beauty. it's also, i found, part of the initial fear.
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Gena Berglund (earthworm,
11/8/98 3:05:08 PM)
Thanks Devin. I like that poem. Velkommen, Swamiloulou. How long you been doing this yoga thing? Was Erich your first teacher? May I presume that your "initial sense of fear" in "wheel" left with no forwarding address?" For the slew of us still with fear remnants, tell us, what's it like to be without it? I recall making attempts years ago to ball up all my fear and toss it over the side of a ship. As I watched it drift away behind the ship, the impulse to dive in was unbearable and I went after it each and every time. It was finally Ramanand Patel who taught me that in yogic philosophy fear cannot be simply dispensed with but that the thing which one fears most must be attempted, artfully. That it was in the doing that fear resolves itself. I guess that's the beauty of trying it out on your mat. Well it is ten years since Ramanand said that and I am just now getting it. I think the key for me, is to have a connection to the Source of all and become bigger than the fear. Without that all I had was fear. It was what kept me "safe." In my experience fear has very good reasons for being there and has to be convinced that another guiding principle will replace it to keep one safe, whether emotionally, physically or mentally. Simply writing this post, here and now feels to me that there is some risk, something to fear. Two years ago I wouldn't have been able to write it. There may be readers of this forum that do not post for similar reasons. Who knows? For me physically based fear started when my totally medicated and unconscious mother gave birth to me. I have physical memories of forceps, bright lights and being hung by one leg. From fetal to hung. The sensitive soul that I am, I reacted by trying to resist and therefore terribly injured my right psoas. My physical and emotional bodies grew in relationship to that radically injured muscle. It is probably why I have an unexplained dread of hospitals and chose to birth my own children at home in very comparatively gentle ways. I am interested to hear what it is like for others, yourself for example, to wake up each day with a fearless backdrop for their "hour upon the stage." Please tell? Namaste, Gena
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Frank (Frank40,
11/9/98 4:30:50 PM)
Hi all, Back following after time away-- busy with classes and all-- and wanted to say thanks for all the wonderful posts! Frank
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earthworm (earthworm,
11/9/98 5:32:46 PM)
Glad you could drop by again Frank. We missed you. How's your yoga practice going during this professorial business. G.
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Fear(s) (swamiloulou,
11/11/98 2:38:29 PM)
gena, sorry for the delay. to answer your questions, i've been practicing since childhood but recently found erich and his style. i am not without fear. i just distinguish between the two different kinds: the emotional fear, that inate spark that comes up when something is scary or potentially painful forces me to do it anyway and go toward it. for me, that fear is really excitement masked by expectation. physical fear is something else altogether. the vulnerability of opening your body to the outside world goes against our basic need to protect and preserve ourselves. opening is risky, but as i've learned through practice, it is also liberating and enriching. striking the balance is the key for me.
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The Stone Soup is smelling good! (earthworm,
11/11/98 6:36:37 PM)
I am brewing all these different descriptions of how various people perceive and face fear. It is wonderful. Gena
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
11/12/98 6:51:33 AM)
Joel Kramer "does fear" well, especially as it relates to the whole mind-body-spirit trinity. For instance, he says: "Mental edges are similar to physical edges in that they are marked by resistance to movement and opening. In the mind, fear is the indicator of resistance as pain is in the body. Fear circumscribes the structure of personality or ego. The ways you think about yourself or the world are the basic building blocks of personality and they are very rigid. When these structures are challenged, fear arises. Fear often expresses itself through attack and defense as a means of alleviating the pain that fear brings. Attack and defense are a way of shoring up (protecting) the challenged structure and burying fear in what is called the unconscious, giving you the illusion of not being afraid. Fear is a great teacher since it is a key to finding out the nature, depth, and degree of your attachment to various thought structures." He also observes: Fear of aging, of dying, of one's own sloth and laziness, of not measuring up to standards, of not making it (whatever 'it' is) - these and other aspects of life display themselves in Hatha Yoga in a particularly direct and poignant way. Awareness of the structures of thought that come out of physical exploring is an integral part of the process of exploring the body."
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Amen, Rev Bobby (SuZie Coyote,
11/12/98 8:28:35 AM)
This is me!!! "Fear of aging, of dying, of one's own sloth and laziness, of not measuring up to standards, of not making it (whatever 'it' is) - these and other aspects of life display themselves in Hatha Yoga in a particularly direct and poignant way. "
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Frank (Frank40,
11/14/98 11:27:40 AM)
Hi everyone, Thanks for the wonderful posts. And your kind words Gena. School is fine, but busy, and I am now buried in blue books! Yes, the least pleasant task of teaching even though there are shining moments from time to time. But Shoulder Stand has been helping me stay calm-- such peace in that position. Funny...I am sometimes not sure to do with my feet way up there? Toe wiggling can be a fun response. Next week off to the American Academy of Religion Meeting in Orlando-- usually a huge event; and often interesting with so many religion types in one city. Good thing Mickey Mouse will be in town! Namaste all, Frank
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Tasty Close on the Last Post Frank! (crotalus,
11/16/98 7:41:36 AM)
Enjoy yourself in Florida - may the sun shine and the wind only stir enough to dry your brow. Tell us about some dat pool side yoga when you return.
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
11/16/98 10:26:07 PM)
I have been contemplating ahimsa, non-violence, and wondering how we can take a more proactive stand against violence in our selves as well as our communities. This led me to wonder at the roots of violence and I came then to anger which seemed to be a combo of fear and will wrapped together. Fear being the opposite of love I thought that we could turn this violence away by combining our will with our love. This made me think of Gandhi. Ah ha! These thoughts may not be new but when one finds them through their own logic it is felt as well as known.Namste, Alix
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
11/17/98 8:58:10 AM)
Nature seems to be be founded on the premise that survival is violent. Now, the joke is that if you're at the top of the food chain you suffer your own environmental follies (tell that to the Peregrine, eh?).
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Frank (Frank40,
12/6/98 5:31:56 AM)
Hi all, Back from Florida and AAR and so happy to find these new messages, and, a new classy looking format here! I have a general asana question: I have been doing yoga now for about 5 months, and have made what I think has been progress with a fine teacher. I am to the point of feeling the desire to try some of the more difficult postures-- it seems as if I want to naturally move into them during a practice, but, I feel a bit hesitant too, not wanting an injury and all. For example, I'd love to move into Chakrasana and Sirshasana, but I'm feeling a bit tentative. I'd love to go further in some asanas I do regularly and into or comfortably beyond "the edge" but sometimes I am not sure how far to go? I have noticed a dramatic change in my body's flexibility since beginning yoga-- so my "limits" have shifted and changed. I guess my question is: any thoughts and words of wisdom on navigating through the stages of beginning regular asana practice as one naturally moves into the more advanced poses? Thanks all. Frank
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
12/6/98 7:34:02 PM)
The fastest way to go is... slowly. Take your time. Don't be in a rush. Be gently persistent. That's what I would say. Monitor yourself, if your body is resistant today you may have pushed it too hard yesterday. Be gentle, but persistent; that is, practice, but gently, not excessively. Too much is too much, and the more you practice the more sensitive you'll be to the subtleties. Also, make sure you get enough rest so the benefits can soak in deeply. As far as your wanting to go deeper into the poses, do! Try things out. Also speak privately with your teacher and ask their advice on which poses you should be doing, and how you can take them deeper. The main idea is to erase the tight spots in whatever pose you happen to be doing, so move the emphasis point around in order to erase as many as possible. The doing of this will take you deeper.
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earthworm (earthworm,
12/7/98 12:50:46 PM)
Hi Frank. Gena
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
12/8/98 2:01:26 PM)
Hi Frank. I would also add that the more difficult poses will come easily to you when you are ready for them. you are preparing yourself as you work to improve the poses that you are doing. The body is straightened and stregthened by the first bunch of poses, then the inversions, for example, are much easier. Good to know you are out there working! Namaste, Alix
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Katherine Riley (spiderr,
12/8/98 2:33:44 PM)
lately I've noticed the bones in my shoulders and upper
back sort of crackling, not cracking, but when I move
my back to stretch (just in everyday stretching or
whatever) there is a real sort of shifting, not
uncomfortable, just new. Is this common? my roomate, to
whom I introduced yoga, says she also has noticed this
re-adjusting sort of stuff going on.
also, i am wondering about moving from up-dog to
down-dog and whether it's not cool if i draw my feet in
closer to my body as I change from one to the other.
that is, I am 5'8'' and weigh about 150 and I think
because my frame is so large that down dog is more
difficult for me to maintain if my feet are way back
where they were when I was doing down dog. does that
make sense? i feel like I am able to really experiment
and listen to my body better when I am in a smaller
triangle position than in a stretched out one...any
hints? namaste everybody, the semester is winding down
here and I am gleefully awaiting mom's TLC over
semester break!
happy holiday season to all. . . take time to drink it
all in...-Katherine
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earthworm (earthworm,
12/8/98 10:57:09 PM)
I like to think that if what you are doing feels right and good to you - then it is. I also think it's good to try other ways sometimes without assuming it will be bad, just in case something has changed. BTW, I snap, crackle and pop throughout my spine many times throughout the day. Sometimes it feels right, like after a great meditation and sometimes it doesn't, like when I feel rushed, stressed or tired. Gena
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Katherine Riley (spiderr,
12/9/98 8:52:24 AM)
THANKS!
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Suzanne LaForest (YogaSuz,
12/14/98 9:26:41 AM)
Frank, I think if you're getting a little bored with your practice you should throw in some challenging poses. In my regular practice I always include one or two poses that I think are almost impossible. It motivates me to practice regularly. I feel proud of myself when I am finally able to get into these extremely difficult poses every time I attempt them. At our studio we have two Level III classes. One is taught with more basic poses and the other is taught with a lot more difficult poses and more variety of poses. I actually prefer the teacher for the basic poses classes more, but I've found that I am personally motivated by trying to do difficult poses, so I take the wacky poses class. Maybe I should concentrate more on the basics, but I find that in trying to do something that's too hard I have to go back and revisit the basic poses to learn those lessons first. I've always learned "backward" like this. Maybe this is your personality, too. Sometimes I think it's odd that I can go from a headstand to a backbend but struggle with tree pose. Well, that's the way I am and it would be silly to stop doing deep backbends just because I haven't mastered every single "beginning" pose. At this point in your practice striving to get into inversions seems appropriate. I bet you start doing Tadasana more if you're trying to figure out how to stay in a headstand longer.
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Intractable Hips (SuZie Coyote,
12/14/98 4:11:34 PM)
I've been doing yoga for over five years now - not a long time as the yogi path goes, but I do mostly intermediate work - everywhere but my hips and groin, that is. It seem that they are getting tighter, rather than looser and my flexibility has worsened, rather than improved. This doesn't seem to be a short-term retreat. I never force, but try to work "gently yet persistently" as Erich recommends. Nothing seems to make a difference. Any favorite hip opening asanas out there? SuZ
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Frank (Frank40,
12/14/98 6:50:53 PM)
Dear everyone, Hello again all! Coming up for air from reading term papers and getting ready for the bluebook blizzard to come my way soon. Thanks for all the very helpful thoughts! Erich, I am especially grateful for your suggestion of going slowly and getting enough rest-- I suspect that in general I do not do enough of the latter. I have found some gentle persistance with the tight spots really helps a great deal. I usually combine a walking and yoga routine in the late afternoons which seems to work well for me. Suzanne, sounds like you have a fantastic approach! I have yet to try the headstand....but seem to becoming adept little by little with the shoulder stand! Who will catch me when I fall? I best get near a wall to start out!? Wishes, Frank
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Frank (Frank40,
12/14/98 6:55:36 PM)
SuZ, Have you ever tried the age old remedy....a good hot shower after a practice? Aim for those hips, it may help?! I find that helps me. Perhaps I am mentioning the obvious here?
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earthworm (earthworm,
12/15/98 4:28:45 PM)
I find when an area is unresponsive to physical manipulation (yoga, etc.), then one has the opportunity to explore the emotional, mental and spiritual bodies for the source of the holding pattern. If the yoga you are doing makes it worse, consider a different approach. If in doubt, meditate. Energy is a powerful source for change. To state what is probably obvious, the pelvic region is related to the basic as well as the sacral energy centers. The basic center is affected by very early experiences of physical safety, the physical will, tribal (familial, cultural) rules, among others. The sacral center is affected by physical creativity and self esteem, among others When I stand by something because I am attached to the idea that it should work and don't understand why it is not working, I am deceiving myself. This has happened to me with yoga, religion, and life. I am finally understanding that I am guided and I need not strive or look for answers outside of myself. When I connect with the Infinite, my capacity to know what I need to do is effortless!!! My recommendation: when you are stuck physically (or emotionally, or mentally), meditate more, do fewer or no asanas until you feel called back into asana. Namaste, Gena
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Frank (Frank40,
12/16/98 8:42:25 AM)
Hi Gena, A belated hello-- thanks for your earlier wishes. Can I e-mail you some bluebooks? Frank
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Too little time for intense practice (YogaSuz,
12/16/98 9:02:16 AM)
I practice twice a week in the mornings for 45 minutes. I love my regular practice sessions, but I wish I had more time. Just as I get warmed up, I have to hit the showers. I've explored ways to stay longer at the gym, but I don't think it's possible to fit it into my schedule and also see my husband and child during the day. So, 45 minutes it is. Today I had a typical practice: moments of frustration and moments of inspiration. I began by meditating doing the counting backward meditation. I felt inspired to practice half-moon pose and standing twists. Since I couldn't very well go right into these, I began with two Series II Sun Salutations to dispell the feeling of cold air around me and loosen my limbs. Then I opened the hips with Warrior I and Triangle, resting in Paddotanasana in between. Then If felt inspired to do a handstand. It was GREAT! I took the time to work with my breath and adjust my body first and I hit the balance right away. It was the best handstand I've ever done. But then, I saw that I was running short on time and I half-assed my way into Arte Chundrasana and didn't even get to the standing twists. I ended with 7 minutes of pranyama, a practice I started two weeks ago and am definitely keeping. 7 minutes isn't as long as I'd like, but it's adequate to get the breath deepening. Is there a way I can warm up faster so I can spend more time on the poses I am focusing on? I'd like to create stillness and calmness throughout the whole practice. The beginning and end are lovely, but my asana practice feels half-baked. You know I love to do the super-hard poses, so there's no way I'm just doing basic poses. I like to work my edges and they are in the splits, deep backbends, inversions, arm balances and balancing poses. I've been faithful to my gym routine now for three months so I know I am still in the process of finding a method to have a satisfying daily practice. Erich's book has been a huge help. The biggest difference has been doing the meditation at the start. That is how I know what to do each day and I feel centered and calmed by it.
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Suzanne LaForest (YogaSuz,
12/17/98 5:54:12 AM)
er, prasarita paddotanasana was the resting pose, not paddotanasana. Better to use English next time.
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earthworm (earthworm,
12/17/98 2:27:40 PM)
Suzanne, Consider a lengthy practice at home once a week as a backdrop to family life. Interruptions become a part of the practice and give you permission to "take a break." It would give you the flexibility to extend the amount of time you practice, while still seeing and interacting with your family. (Puns intended.) Gena
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Kim Palka (MiPal,
12/18/98 6:59:07 PM)
Greetings! My first chance to actually spend some time reading here and I know I'm going to like it! The comments re: headstand caught my attention and thought I'd share...my teacher really discourages trying it first against a wall as he feels it creates a dependence that isn't necessary. He says fear is the main reason people can't/don't do headstand. His recommendation is to try it each day 5 times, then quit. Eventually odds are in your favor that you'll succeed. His method of getting into it is pretty much like Erich's in the book. I was so psyched the first time I actually did it -- I only stayed a few seconds because I was too busy squealing that I had done it! It's quite the trip. You'll love it, too! Best to everyone in this holiday season.
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
12/19/98 4:39:14 PM)
Hello everyone old and new! The season has been busy but I wanted to catch up on what's been happening here. Regarding spiderr's comment about going from up dog to down dog, I adjust my feet a couple of inches forward when I reach down dog. That's the way my main teacher taught me. I think that works well for most body types. Great advice Gena about family practice. I was working on handstand to backbend on a walk on the beach with the family, just the other day. Hi Kim. I've known instructors who were very against the wall thing(no pun intended). That is not my opinion though. I learned against the wall myself. The instructors at the Yoga Center SLO mostly teach that way. There People seem to use the wall to help with alignment, then they are anxious to join the rest of the class in the center of the room. For me the wall has been a prop, not a crutch. Dropping back from headstand to backbend is a great way to lose the fear of falling in the pose if you aren't against a wall. Namaste, Alix
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Soaz Muscle Suffering From Too Much
Trkonasana (glaserp,
1/2/99 9:21:03 PM)
I'm not sure exactly how to describe the soaz muscle other than to say that it's the one my teacher says I've overstretched. It's the muscle that comes out of the groin and runs down the inside of the leg -- the one you stretch when when you do Trikonasana and Ardha Chandrasana. Anyway, it went sore on me about three months ago on both sides. I did a few baths and took it easy and the left cleared up, but the right persists. I don't do anything that pulls and aggravates that muscle, although the stiffness seems to extentd into the hamstring from time to time. I am trying to accept that I've simply moved my edge on that muscle further back, as Joel Kramer writes. My teacher says she recently injured the same muscle, and it took her 6 months to recover! I'm not sure I ever overextended. I never felt I did anything wrong while practicing. I was going pretty deep into Trkonasana and Ardha Chandrasana, but it felt great -- very invigorating. Either there was a resistance I was not aware of, or I was being too greedy with these poses -- my mental attitude was too aggressive. Anyway, to make a short story long, other than avoiding the asanas that aggravate this muscle, are there any suggestions for ones that will have a salutory effect? I want to work around this muscle, learn to understand it better, learn to listen to what it (or a surrounding muscle) is trying to tell me about my practice. Also, I'm signed up for Erich's retreat at Kripalu at the end of the month. I'm wondering -- is it wise to go on a Yoga retreat with this kind of injury? Maybe I should cancel?
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earthworm (earthworm,
1/3/99 7:20:03 PM)
Our "injuries" are our best teachers. That stated, the salutory effect of an asana may be only as effective as your awareness allows it to be. I recommend that you retreat with the psoas question as your wondering/wandering principle for the weekend. For treating the "injury" I recommend a non-traditional approach not unlike that which Victor Van Kooten teaches. Go inside the abdomen/groin/leg area and explore it with your awareness, deeply palpate the area being sensitive to tenderness. I find light pressure (it should be comfortable and tolerable) in tender areas can help facilitate some release of the holding/tension. Follow the breath into the area, notice where it does and doesn't easily go and ask for Guidance about what to do. Stay open to Guidance as you explore. As you practice this way learn to trust the deep inner impulses (not mental impulses) to move, (or not move), writhe, wiggle and squirm. With this kind of approach you can get to know your unique physical presentation and work with it artfully. You have the power to know and heal yourself from within. Anything that relaxes the injured area can be helpful. For a while now I have been dealing with an "injury" in my right shoulder. I'm fine while doing down dog but then during the night it will tighten up. I don't hesitate to take Ibuprofen because of it's relaxing effect that seems to decrease pain and inflamation. I find Ibuprofen can be a short term but helpful band-aid to a problem that requires long term dedication and persistance. I like Erich's approach: "The fastest way is to Go Slowly" Don't feel rushed to get back to the postures that caused the problem. Work with what feels good and right to your body, mind and spirit. Meditation is a very helpful skill for dealing with injury. Meditation will make you increasingly aware of what and who you are and that awareness will open you to Guidance. Finally. We tend to see injury as an indication that something is broken. What I am continuing to learn is that breaking through from an injury to a new level of awareness often leads me to another "injury" that needs attention. Being whole and healthy may not be synonymous with being injury free. I have learned through exploration that I have stored many physical, mental and emotional issues and memories in the cells and tissues of my body. As I become more whole, I am increasingly aware that it helps to let my body be the body, in whatever state it is in, injured or otherwise and focus my attention on my deeper more fundamental nature. My core, my soul, my inner union with the Infinite. When the injured area keeps me from moving to my core self then it needs my attention. But if I am simply trying to have a perfect injury free body . . . that is a mechanistic view to which I no longer subscribe . . . but in the past, it induced in me much suffering, because I could never be perfect enough. So that is a pitfall to avoid if you are at all in range of it. I hope this wasn't confusing. Love, Gena
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Phil Glaser (glaserp,
1/4/99 1:17:46 PM)
Gena, Confusing? No, every single word makes sense. Actually, just formulating the question the way I did helped me already to do a little of what you are suggesting. Everything you say makes perfect sense. Though she didn't suggest looking for Guidance, my teacher did point out that we're like an onion: we are continually uncovering new layers, and at each layer is something new to be healed. She also didn't tell me how to spell psoas :-) Have you ever tried Arnica? In the 30c dose, my experience is that at the initial flareup it's helpful, though less so with older pains. But I'm wondering if a stronger dose mightn't be helpful w/those as well. (Though anything above 30c w/out a prescription makes me nervous). Oh, but, well, there is one thing: it's the Guidance thing. I've got theological problems with this. I find it helpful to think of it like this: make myself completely mindful of my body, and my body will lead me to the solution. Sorry I used the "T" word. But that's where I'm holding . . . I really appreciate your help. Thanks!!!
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earthworm (earthworm,
1/4/99 7:46:11 PM)
Phil, You're very welcome. I've been told not to go above 30c without prescription, too. I'll try Arnica next time instead of the allopathic and see what effect it has. Good suggestion. I've been there with the theological thing. Actually I think the atheist postition as long as there isn't anger or resentment is a very clear, clean place to be. I say, be where you are and explore from there. Meditation is an exploration and you are the explorer. It's fun and can give you really great insights or just be very relaxing. It doesn't matter if you call it Guidance or just tapping intelligence or the Universe or yourself. The experience is worth having! Love, Gena
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Suzanne LaForest (YogaSuz,
1/5/99 9:04:49 AM)
Phil, FYI, that muscle you are feeling is called the abductor muscle. I overstretched this muscle about 12 years ago trying to get into full splits, and it remained tight feeling afterward. I then ripped it two years later while doing a cartwheel (I didn't warm up for it and had walked about 10 miles the day before). What a wicked bruise that was. I'm happy to report that I am finally able to stretch this muscle all the way into a full splits, but for many years I was scared to test the muscle by stretching too hard. It seems to have healed with a more dedicated asana practice. I'm curious if the proper rotation of the inner thigh affects the ability of this muscle to stretch. Is there anyone out there more knowledgeable on physiology able to comment? Good luck with it. Suzanne
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SuZett Estell (SuZie Coyote,
1/5/99 11:26:17 AM)
As a massage therapist, I have found that people with tight gluteal muscles (hips) often have corresponding problems with the abductors. If the glutes are overly tight, one cannot get proper rotation of the thigh, which impacts all leg movements, so you are probably correct in your analysis, Suzanne. Chances are it is the opposite glute that is tight...the right inside abductor usually mirrors what the left backside glutes are doing. My experience is that for every place in the body you find a constriction there is an equal constriction in an opposing area, usually cross-body, crossing both left to right and front to back. For example, if the right back of the neck is "stuck," and painful then the left psoas is usually contracted as well. (The psoas connects the inside of the leg with the sacrum, through the front of the pelvis). Similarly, if the low back hurts, there is probably compression going on in the chest, which may or may not be felt. The pain usually happens in the area with the most enervation or the area used most frequently, but pain doesn’t necessarily indicate where the root problem lies. The body will always find a way to balance itself to keep the head and eyes level. Otherwise vertigo results and the human body cannot tolerate vertigo for very long. So, problems are never "just" in the right shoulder, or the neck, the low back or the adductors. It just feels like that way because those areas are more subject to manifest pain. Often the compensation for lack of balance is complicated, with one set of muscles compensating for the first and a third set compensating for the second. Opening is then like "unwinding." This is why yoga is so great with it’s emphasis on spinal flexibility and strength. Yoga works from the core and eventually restores balance outward from the core through the various muscle complexes. Focusing on strength and flexibility at the core (starting with the sacrum) seems to be more effective than focusing on the "problem" area and trying to fix it. Hope this helps. SuZ
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earthworm (earthworm,
1/8/99 5:39:47 PM)
I really like that Erich teaches to get into an asana in various ways thereby working different areas. I really believe in the follow your intuition approach to yoga and body issues. I believe that intuition is cultivated through a daily practice of meditation and tuning in to the part of oneself that I sometimes call Wisdom. As I learn to trust my intuition, the way I move through life and practice that movement on the mat in asana can't help but be affected by the growing sense of connection from which intuition comes. I have a question for those of you who have done or teach Iyengar yoga. Do you find that the steady stream of descriptive detailed instruction in an Iyengar class is helpful or distracting for "finding the inner asana?" I am currently apprenticing with an Iyengar instructor which reminded of this issue. I think one reason I had to break with the Iyengar method is that it served to keep me from going inward. My awareness stayed mostly externalized. Now as I am attempting to marry my present day reality with my personal history, I am seeking to understand why Iyengar and his students teach in this way. What is the purpose of so much direction. I have an inkling about what I think. What do you think? Namas Te, Gena
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
1/15/99 1:38:47 PM)
What I think ( I'm not an Iyengar teacher but am influenced by him ) is that all the details do two helpful things; they keep your mind from wandering to your shopping list and they help to align the body and a third, help to figure out where one should be soft and where one should be firm. I tell my students that the instructons are tools that you don't need once you start to get the feel for the energy of the pose. I also throw in a lot of words about doing what feels right, finding the stretch that is good for you today and don't do what I say if it doesn't feel like it's working for you type of thing. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it Gena. Namas te Alix
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earthworm (earthworm,
1/18/99 12:34:56 PM)
My thoughts about this are all mixed up about this. I was talking it over with a friend yesterday and I think that I agree with your statement, "I also throw in a lot of words about doing what feels right, finding the stretch that is good for you today and don't do what I say if it doesn't feel like it's working for you type of thing." Ultimately my concern is dependence on the teacher's idea of the right or wrong way to be in the pose. My understanding has evolved dramatically over the past 6 months as I began to meditate on a daily basis. Because I have experienced the "Great Mover", the "Breath inside the Breath", the experience of yielding to earth and sky which is so different than effortfulful struggle against or resignation to the status quo of one's existence, I am inclined to teach that the wisdom of yoga comes from one's connection to, one's unity with God (Infinite Mind, the Source of All). I can teach the poses, meditation and pranayama in detail, but if the students rely on the detail of my teaching rather than the Infinite Wisdom of the Source of All, then I am cultivating dependence on "limited illusory me" and propagating the idea that people do not have the ability to trust Guided Intuition. I guess my yoga and my life has taken a serious turn toward the spiritual practice of yoga. Thanks for sharing your point of view. It helped me hone my own. Love, Gena
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
1/20/99 10:37:49 PM)
Some people aren't ready find God in yoga and just the word God gives me a limited picture anyway. Tapping into infinite mind works better for me. I think a class of mixed and mixed up people can look within for guidance, I don't know. I admire your firm focus on the spiritual. That's one of the reasons I have sought Erich out is to learn how to teach the spiritual aspects of yoga in my hatha classes. What is your God like Gena? does he or she or it watch over us, know or care about what we do? Judge us? Namaste, Alix
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Starting to wonder (YogaSuz,
1/21/99 9:21:14 AM)
I'm starting to wonder, too, about the Iyengar approach. I used to love the physicality of it, but now I am finding that I want to follow all 8 limbs of yoga, and Iyengar seems to emphasize only asana practice. It is very externally focused. I thought when I got more advanced there would be other things introduced besides asana practice, but it's not happening. On the other hand, it was a great place to start. It really drew me in because it was fun and challenging, but I also think that it fosters competition. Sure, we all say that it's not competitive, but since the focus is all on the physical, everyone is wowed when someone does the pose better than them. I'm sure a lot of this comes from my teacher, who is competitive himself. I didn't use to feel this way about Iyengar yoga. Anyway, I think that the detailed instructions on getting into the pose does teach that inner awareness of your body. It's easy as a more accomplished person to forget how difficult it is for a beginner...they don't even know where half the body parts are. At the beginning, especially, it's nice to have someone tell you exactly what to do. My husband is really tight from years of running and takes Iyengar classes. He appreciates that there isn't a lot of "that cult stuff" in the style. So there's that. Thanks to everyone on this site, I am transforming my yoga practice. Erich's book changed the way I approach my personal practice and the comments of everyone here have reinforced and shaped my vision of what I what path I would like to follow. I finally realized that my Iyengar teacher can't give me what I need. My [real] teacher has appeared now...I must be ready because I devoted myself so much to yoga the last two years. (Always used to think that was a line to make you feel bad that you didn't have a good teacher, but now I think it's true because it happened magically, just like it sounds like it will.) She calls herself a Kripalu teacher and she is lovely, knowledgeable and kind. I'm phasing out my Iyengar practice ...after my 10 paid weeks are up at the Iyengar center I'll be joining my new teacher's advanced Kripalu class. I am so happy! Yeah, it's a little frustrating to make another change, but it's great to feel in my heart that this is the right decision. Namaste All! Suzanne
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Love This Testimony - Postcards From the
Edge (tympanachus cupido,
1/21/99 9:30:02 AM)
Makes me feel like pulling this together with Erich and SuZ was more than worth the time. Got me into yoga - s'pose that was enough, really. 8-)) Glad there's some steady good posters and co-symposiarchs to keep it cookin'. Heartfelt THANKS to you all!
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earthworm (earthworm,
1/21/99 3:30:16 PM)
Thanks for all these thoughtful comments. I have been playing with interchanging God and Infinite Mind. Language is such a powerful thing. It is amazing to me, all that I attach to certain words and the power those words can have over me. Because I was raised as a Lutheran brand of Christian, this interchanging is a way for me to heal the rift between my life as a child and my life as a yogi. For years I was wary of the word, God, and have great respect regarding the problems it creates for people, which is why I would never use it in a public class. However, I am also aware that some folks may wish to know that their internal experience of the "Infinite" could also be the "God" of their religios life. Here is a survey question: Is the main problem with the God word, that it is associated with Christians? What is it that relegates the word "God" to the trash heap for some people? My problem with it was the oppressive and authoritarian nature of my own religious education. I've finally made peace with that education, coming from the limited view point held by people, (they do the best they can, I guess), which is quite different than having a personal connection to an Infinite Mind or God that is beyond any human attempt at cannonization, crede, dogma or doctrine. Suzanne, congratulations on your big switch. There is a wonderful article in the current yoga journal about how valuable it is to study many different forms of yoga and take from each what is most useful to your own practice and life. Georg Feuerstein is also interviewed in this issue and comments on the importance of understanding your yoga practice in the traditional diversity which is yoga. Iyengar teachers in general have a tendency to see their approach as the one "right" approach. Georg thinks this constitutes a non-traditional approach to yoga. Based on my limited experience I think he's barking up the right tree! Good luck with the transition and keep us posted as to how it is going. You may have to do a lot of letting go of what you were taught is the right way . . . keep on meditating and trusting your intuition. There is a lot of experience on this sight that can help you out when you are feeling frustrated or stuck. Namas Te, Gena
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earthworm (earthworm,
1/21/99 3:31:58 PM)
That should be site as in web site, not sight! Whoops!
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Phil Glaser (glaserp,
1/27/99 11:43:59 AM)
This exchange is really helpful to me. I just got back from Erich's three-day retreat at Kripalu. It was such a powerful experience. There is so much there and I'm not sure what to make of it all. Just trying to sit with the confusion. It was really cool to meet Erich in person after having connected a little in this forum. (Erich, if you're reading, it's Phil here! Thanks again for a wonderful retreat!) Anyway, you're all dealing with two of my biggest questions -- finding God and finding a yoga teacher (yes yes, I know -- that's the same quest . . .). Erich describes the waves as a metaphor for the individual: we are each like a wave, all part of a vast ocean, and yoga is a tool for becoming aware of this reality. As we practice, we become aware of everything that's below. My experience, after having practiced for about a year, is that there is a a big layer of difficult stuff belonging to my own personal experience. The ocean beyond, or perhaps the strength that's built by yoga practice itself, makes it safe to open myself up to it all. Still, it's quite powerful. Some folks talk about the great joy and bliss that comes from meditation. They don't mention that you might have to walk through darkness to get to the light. So where is "God"? I have such problems with this concept. For the last 10 years, I've been praying, in an unexamined way, to the God of Hebrew Scripture. Though Scripture never explicitly says so, there is an expectation, accumulated by two thousand years of Jewish commentary, that sets up the expectation that God judges and saves. As much as I've found this intellectually problematic, my yoga practice -- to which I came originally for physical and emotional "well-being" -- has made me so aware of how deeply problematic this is that I find it impossible to pray anymore. I just can't do it. On the other hand, the nonjudgementallness that I'm learning from meditation has been extraordinarily healing. Moreover, the attitude of listening to pain and totally accepting it has proven much more helpful than fostering the false hope that the Creator of the universe, or anyone else for that matter, is somehow going to sweep down and make it all better. It makes such a difference to know that I don't have to DO anything; all I need to do is listen and everything will fall into place. Or it won't, and I'll just keep listening. There is a real difference in God concept here. I still can't put my finger on it, but it's a bona fide major difference. I don't know if the concept of Infinite Mind makes it clearer. I can only say that the awareness that I'm learning to integrate into and that's been fostered by my practice is taking me in a new and more healing direction. And do you see why I find the idea of "Guidance" to be problematic? Anyway, after an initial encounter with a mooshey gooshey new agey money grubbing integral teacher (well, I'm WORKING on my judgementalness), I began practicing with Iyengar teachers because their teacher training is so extensive and I wasn't interested in "spiritual stuff" (I'm still not, really -- Erich strikes a good balance). They are very grounded in the physical and know their way around the body. But I need a teacher who can also help me be more, rather than less, mindful of the emotional and spiritual stuff that yoga is opening me up to. The problem with Kripalu is that there is more variation because the training is less demanding (a lot less than Iyengar, in any case). Suzanne, if your Kripalu person knows a like-qualified teacher in northern New Jersey, I'd love to know about him or her. Anyway, good questions, no answers. Just listening to confusion. Thank you all for having had this exchange just when I needed to hear it and participate in it. It's making my transition back to work and family life more smooth. I hope all this makes sense. I wrote a first version of this and it disappeared when I tried to spell check it through the web-interface. The second time doesn't sound as good. Oh well. --Phil
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Theological Correction!!! (glaserp,
1/27/99 11:49:34 AM)
Wooops. Before I said "Though Scripture never explicitly says so, there is an expectation, accumulated by two thousand years of Jewish commentary, that sets up the expectation that God judges and saves." What I meant to say is "that God judges and saves INDIVIDUALS". Of course, it says all over the place that God judges and saves the Israelite nation as a whole (I mean, that's almost the whole point of Hebrew scripture), which doesn't help at an individual level, even though Tradtion expands it to extend to the individual. Thanks again! Phil
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Reprise - Asana and Menstruation (SuZie Coyote,
1/27/99 5:02:51 PM)
From Joe Weider’s Muscle & Fitness, Feb 99: "Some researchers like Edward Wojtys;, MD, an orthopedic surgeon at the University of Michigan Medical Center in Ann Arbor, point to hormonal variances as a possible culprit" [in anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) injuries. The ACL is in the knee.] At the University of Michigan and the University of California, Los Angeles, researchers have found higher-than expected rates of ACL injury shortly before menstruation, when estrogen levels spike. At ACLU, the tissue of the ACL has been found to have receptors that react to estrogen. "High levels of estrogen basically weaken the tissue and that probably is when the injury occurs…additional hormonal pieces of the ACL puzzle will be revealed when as-of-yet unpublished research papers show that hormones indeed contribute to this type of injury. " The article goes on to caution restraint before leaping to conclusions based on "slim research." "I would hate to see a coach cut back on a female athlete’s training volume each month based on the proposition that estrogen is putting the athlete at risk" says one researcher. So, it is perhaps the estrogen spike BEFORE menstruation that makes certain poses potentially riskier from an injury point of view. SuZ
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
1/27/99 10:55:44 PM)
Thanks for the follow up SuZ. I had a student who hadn't taken class from me in about six months say that I was changing my style, she was talking about how I used to be always telling people to draw the knee cap up, straighten the leg, firm the leg etc. Suzanne isn't the only one being influenced by all this anti-authoritarianism around here!
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
1/27/99 11:02:19 PM)
Phil, brave of you to write your post over again. That happened to me once and I gave up. Nothing like poring your guts out to a bunch of faceless people just to lose it to cyberspace! I hear you on your struggle with spirit. You know, one of the things that helps me is that I know I would be living my life just like this wether there is anything more to our existence or not. Love, service and opening yourself up to the people around you is worthwhile either way. It's about letting go of your fear. Fear of God and fear of no God. Namaste, Alix
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Jewish Meditation (YogaSuz,
1/28/99 9:37:39 AM)
Phil, I am also becoming closer to Judaism, which is nominally my mother's religion and definitely her parent's. I wasn't raised strongly Jewish (to say the least), but my yoga practice leads me to other connections to God and I feel most comfortable with Judaism. I struggle, too, with the traditional conception of God in the scripture and my own sense of God. I think that there is a lot of things in Judaism that speak of God as an infinite mind and that a lot of the practice of Judaism reinforces this. If you practice Judaism as it is spelled out in the Torah, you are basically praying constantly. One rabbi told me there is even a prayer of thanks you can give for having a successful bowel movement. The idea is to thank God for your health. To me, this is just like meditation, it keeps your mind focused away from itself and onto God. On the other hand, it's hard when you are at Yom Kippur services and the rabbi is saying, "God is judging you today." Oh, but I so like the imperative to go out and make amends with everyone you harmed...but not that I'm doing it to come clean with a judging God. I've found that the reconstructionist branch of Judaism seems most open to interpreting God in a way that I also conceive of him. What type of services are you attending? A friend of mine just lent me a book called Jewish Meditation which I am just now starting. So far, I like it very much. I will give you more information as I read more myself. It sounds like it might be up your alley. I, too, am starting to meditate throughout the day. Thanks so much for affirming my decision to go with a Kripalu teacher. I waver sometimes on this. My Iyengar teacher has his moments when he is very good. My asana practice is challenged by him and when I work my edges hard it is a spiritual experience. I am so flexible that it does take Supta Padangustasana III and splits and other extreme poses to play my edges. I also like my classmates a lot and would like to continue seeing them. I think ideally I would go to both teachers, but practically I already spend too much time away from my baby daughter. I think I will ocassionally drop-in to my Iyengar class so I can get a tough asana fix every now and then. I will ask my teacher if she is aware of any good teachers in her area next time I see her. However, it probably won't be for a few weeks since I have to finish up the session with my Iyengar studio. Namaste! Suzanne
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Bob Cox (tympanachus cupido,
1/29/99 8:40:50 PM)
Re <184> & <187> loss of posts: Get in the habit of clipboarding the post when you get more than a box worth. Then paste it into notepad or wordpad or your word processor if you have it up and save it to a file called temp that you use over and over. You'll rarely lose more than a few minutes worth and find the misery much minimized. It's really the same old cover-your-butt kinda stuff you always need to keep in mind with the computer (which loves to eat your homework). I had 4 hours into a piece of writing in FrontPage the other day with about 20 Netscape windows open. I'd been saving the file to the hard drive religiously when W95 hung. When I rebooted I only had a fragment of the file left. Closest I've been to tears in a while (after the stomp around raging fit). Figured it was Infinite Mind telling me it was crap that I was writing - haven't begun again yet but figure it'll be better with a fresh start. I figure Jesus from the Big Lebowski lives in my machine and is just waiting for my butt to uncover - sometimes he has to force it. ;-)
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Jewish Meditation (glaserp,
1/30/99 4:53:46 PM)
Suzanne, I'm familiar with Aryeh Kaplan's work. He's written a ton both on Jewish meditation and Kabbalah (mysticism), which is where you'll find the concept of the ein sof (literally, "there is no end") which sounds close to Infinite Mind, but I never learned enough about mysticism to relate the two. There is much beauty in Judaism and there is much to be annoyed and troubled by (like the image of God judging on Yom Kippur, invoking fear rather than love). What it comes down to for me is that Tradition feels at times like it's squashing the openness and nonjudgementalness that is developping, very much on its own, from my yoga and meditation practice. For example, the meditation model kaplan presents deals with different meditation objects, such as the unity of God, etc.; to me the beauty of vipassana meditation is that it makes no demand other than to pay radically close attention to the inner experience, come what may. The many strictures of Judaism -- the blessings to which you refer, the praying three times a day, the dietary restrictions, etc. -- can be helpful when life feels chaotic and needs spiritual direction, but can also feel emotionally repressive, especially if one is angry at God . . . Funny thing is, at the same time that my yoga and meditation is making me question the total mitzva orientation of yiddishkeit, it's also bringing out and magnifying my feeling of love for the texts -- Scripture, Talmud, the commentaries, etc. I just love the texts. Well, was it Oscar Wilde who said `consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds'? Can you tell me a little about Joel's Passionate Mind? Is it like the Guru stuff, or does it focus on yoga? ( would just order it but things are tight financially right now [yes, they are THAT tight!]). WRT Iyengar vs. Kripalu, I say -- go for both! Why not go on alternate weeks, or alternate whatevers, baby permitting? (At times I feel guilty that my yoga practice takes time away from our two small children, but my wife (!!!) is all for it 'cause she says it improves my emotional presence and insight into our parenting.) Really cool stuff! Thanks! Namaste Phil
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Loss of posts (glaserp,
1/30/99 4:56:54 PM)
Yes, and in my case the Infinite Mind was even more obvious because as I was typing this enormous thing the thought occured to me -- duh, gee I should really clipboard this -- but I didn't listen to that thought. The wisdom is knowing which thoughts to ignore and which ones to act on. I suggested to Erich that we might do better with a LISTSERV model. But on the other hand I also think that having the site and the passwords lends to a feeling coziness and gives a diferent tone to the community. Whatever. Phil
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
1/31/99 11:29:28 PM)
Hello all. Wow, this has been good reading. Thanks. And, Hi Phil! I really enjoyed meeting you at Kripalu. I like your comments above. With regard to The Passionate Mind by Joel Kramer... a very good book. He has changed his views about things in the years since the book first came out, but the contents of The Passionate Mind is what he was saying in his yoga workshops about everything except the physical yoga. His workshops were divided into the physical yoga, hatha, and the mental yoga, jnana. The book is what he was saying during the mental sections. I haven't looked at it in quite awhile, though I'm feeling that maybe I will take another look at it. I've always thought it was excellent.
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Frank (Frank40,
2/14/99 6:41:52 AM)
Hi all, Thank you all for this wonderful dialogue. So great to read and reflect upon the many insights shared. I'm returning after some time following a typically hectic start to the second semester, and now, already buried in blue books-- the problem teaching a freshman course-- they usually need a little quiz early in the semester! Can I e-mail any of you some bluebooks? I especially loved reading the many posts about yoga asana, meditation, and spirituality. I am a "practicing Christian" of the Roman Catholic variety and my experience so far has been (perhaps I am stating the obvious here) that regular yoga practice seems to prepare me for prayer...or at least seems to make me more attentive and honest about my attempts at Christian prayer. It seems that yoga brings me a certain depth and centeredness to the starting off point...if that makes any sense? I am one of those who prays regularly first thing in the morning....very early...before the sun comes up....when it is so wonderfully quiet and peaceful...I think the great Mexican author Carlos Fuentes once said that writing and working in the early morning was like taking the sweet cream off the top of the day....and yoga seems to make the prayer flow easier. And more important, I now experience prayer as being more faithful, honest, and true. I have noticed this shift since I began the practice of yoga. I might add that my aging body seems to "do yoga" better in the late afternoon. Stillness in the morning seems to be my preference! An additional insight I have come to this year-- for centuries Christianity has struggled in many ways with well known problematic views of "the body" perhaps thanks to St. Augustine and his "Confessions" and for other complex reasons. That old mind/spirit-body dualism which is a tension throughout western thought! I, perhaps like a kid with a new toy, continue to discover in new ways the deep sacred respect that yoga affords to the body. Often after a yoga session I feel as if I have been praying from head to toe, and the consolation is almost indescribable. I continue to sense that yoga brings me a sense of "balance" to the sometimes negative perceptions that my own religious tradition has to understanding the relationship between body and spirit. I speak out of my own experience here....but in some circles Catholicism still wrestles with the questions about the "goodness" of the body. I imagine that this positive realization will grow....at least I hope so. Wishes to you all! Frank
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Body Prayer (Shakti Das,
2/14/99 9:35:04 AM)
Thanks for sharing that beautiful post Frank. Growing up in the west, we all know of the negative body/nature view that is prevalent, but i agree that it doesn't have to be that way. Have you heard of Matthew Fox's Creation Spirituality? He is trying to work within the Church to create a more body positive/nature positive attitude? I also have met some "mature" Catholic priests who did yoga. donny
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
2/14/99 1:42:15 PM)
I'd like to thank you also, Frank, for sharing. I like what you said. It confirms my conviction that though yoga is not a religion it does induce religious feeling. It does this by helping one experience the reality of Now, and that's truly mysterious and mind-blowing every time! My sense is that there is only one thing going on: God being All. And therefore, the body is not merely a temporary host or habitation for the soul, but is part of God's infinite Self-expression. To think of it as anything less is not healthy. That's why after a good yoga session you feel like you've been "praying from head to toe." Namaste to you and everyone here. With love and pranams, Erich
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Ocham Notwithstanding (Yoga-Aba,
2/15/99 8:19:51 AM)
Ocham's razor ("entities are not to be multiplied
without necessity") notwithstanding, I'm wondering if
we mayn't benefit from creating a thread for kind of
related religous experiences, or rather, folks like
Frank and me who are integrating yoga with, and
allowing yoga to transform, and existing western (well,
Judaeo-Christian) religious practice.
BTW, I'm changing my online handle to Yoga-Aba
(if the web-server permits, and hopefully I succeded in
opening a second account). Aba is the word in the
Talmud (it's an Armaic word, but it serves in Hebrew as
well) for "father." I was inspired both by the
"Yogamama" example and by the fact that my inquiry into
Yoga was motivated by the birth of our first daughter,
an event that brought me into contact with my deepest
fears and deepest joys. The journey of parenthood feels
deeply intertwined with the journey of yoga. The hyphen
is in place of the apostrophe (Mr. Server didn't like
the apostrophe), which is the phonetic transliteration
of the Aramaic/Hebrew alif, so you should pronounce yo
| ga | aba, NOT yo | ga | ba.)
Thanks all!
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Oh, that's me (Yoga-Aba,
2/15/99 8:21:36 AM)
Oops, forgot to sign the last post. In case you didn't get it, Yoga-Aba is PHIL. Regards, Phil
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Suzanne LaForest (YogaSuz,
2/15/99 11:20:08 AM)
Yoga-aba, I'd love to see that topic. It's good to have you back in the discussion! Suzanne
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Dana Medeiros (DLynnM,
2/15/99 8:03:50 PM)
I'm really enjoying reading through these posts! I'm very new to Yoga. I started yoga as a way to deal with very serious back pain and an over stressed life. It's had marvelous physical and emotional effects. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to take classes, so I've been relying on videos (Erich's is my absolute favorite!!!) and lots and lots of reading and studying. These discussions are very helpful as I learn more about yoga. I'm encouraged to see others of Judeo-Christian backgrounds participating. As a Christian, I've really struggled in this area. Too many conservative Christians counsel us away from Yoga. But the more I learn, and the more I practice, I understand that yoga is not a religion, but can certainly have incredible spiritual benefits, regardless of your religion. Thanks!
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Phil Glaser (Yoga-Aba,
2/16/99 12:27:20 PM)
Dana, Welcome aboard! I'm in the same situation as you in that I just haven't had the time to find a good teacher. Now's the time for me to mention an article in a recent Yoga Journal (one or two issues back) about a woman unustly on death row who, from memory, practiced yoga and perfected it in solitary confinement. She eventually hooked up with Sivananda, if memory serves, and got certified to teach, but even without that training, the folks who saw her were quite impressed with how far she'd gotten on her own. Apparently Joel Kramer is self taught, as well. Not that I want to be without a teacher, but it certainly seems to be doable in the interim. Near as I can tell, I can't detect even a smidgen of idolatry in Yoga practice. Hinduism has all those polytheistic creation myths, but Yoga was developped as a separate system that was later incorporated into Hinduism. Does Patanjali ever say anything about God in the monotheistic sense? Regards, Phil
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Isvara (Shakti Das,
2/16/99 1:33:05 PM)
Yes, Phil that is what makes yoga unique in Hinduism.
It is all about finding the Source within and is quite
different from the much more common externally oriented
bhakti (devotional) practices of Hinduism found in
India today.
Although many people combine bhakti, karma, hatha, raj,
nada, tantra, and other yoga practices as mutual
catalysts, Patanjali only mentions one practice that
could be considered devotional (the practice of Isvara
Pranidhana), which is often mistranslated as surrender
to God.
But what is this God, Isvara, that Patanjali speaks
about? Isvara is beyond limitation and attributes --
there is no form, so there can be no statute nor
external/temporal temple. Isvara is the Great Integrity
of All that is -- all who we are -- all that will ever
be and this realization is completed in TURIYA, the
Fourth, the Dimension where there is no time and all
time. Of course Isvara is a BIG subject ({-)
In asana practice, i surrender to that wisdom that is
beyond mere conceptional intellectualizations and human
thought patterns -- i try to let go of my old body/mind
patterns and align up with this Great Integrity
body/mind/breath/nature/creation/creator and come
closer. If i do not surrender to that (Isvara
Pranidhana) my practice is unsuccessful.
The authentic practice for me then is when devotion,
dedication, and practice converge as one -- as i focus
more closely on where my liberation and happiness lies
and at the sametime eliminating the shackles of
confusion, pain, and suffering.
If it is our time to evolve and move into new
territorty but if we ignore or resist it, then this
repression/obstruction will cause dis-ease in the
body/mind energetics (vyadhis). May the asanas lead us
to the self existent love. light, and bliss of Sat Chit
Ananda!
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Poly/Mono (Shakti Das,
2/16/99 1:57:03 PM)
In non-dualism there exists a sort of morphogenetic resonance or holographic model where "diversity" and "unity" are not separate. There is the cosmic mother and there's the DNA worm -- there is the center of the universe and the sushumna. It's a Both/And model, rather than an either/or.. but it's a non-model in the sense that as soon as we use words (words discern, break apart, define, and limit -- we lose the sense of the reality beyond the words -- which is why meditation is held in such high regard -- as successful meditation brings us beyond the chatter of the mind -- the words stop and the (profound) silence engulfs us -- why the name of G_d can not be uttered, and where the tantric merging of samsara and nirvana occurs (they were not really separate in the first place, but it was the "modified" mind which ordered/mis-ordered them to be so -- which ascribed to them carnal and corrupt attributes. We talk "about" this Sacred Prescnece altogether too much already. In this sense we are overly representational, symbolic, vicarious, and neurotic reinforcing the separateness rather than the Living Reality. It's hard not to contribute to this state of spiritual alienantion and use words "effectively", but you have brought up a deep subject which is difficult for me not to go "off" into it with words. This stage of mono/poly (unity in diversity and diversity in unity) -- the creative spirit within all of creation (within and without) can also be triggered through asana and pranayama and the practice of yoga as postulated by Patanjali -- or it can occur naturally-- Wadsworth or Rilke for example. Sometimes its a disservice to analyze or "overly" call to bear the reductionist mind. Are we too fragmented or too withdrawn. What is really needed now for me is to let go of the corruptive influences (that i carry with me) and align all the five koshas and the breath -- creation and creator in one continuous flow, but alas i still stray... in love
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Micro/Macro Oosm (Shakti Das,
2/16/99 3:14:23 PM)
There is a close thread occuring in the Yoga Sutras between the ideas of Isvara Pranidhana (surrender) and vairaga (letting go). Vairaga is not neutral dispassion but a joyful release. The connection between these two elements ae also closely associated with tapas (the practice of redirecting dissipating energetics, tendencies and activities to increase spiritual passion and evolution). These two energetics in turn are also linked to the practice of pratyhara which links the lower koshas with dharana (or concentration), thus the eight limbs of ashtanga yoga become integrated. In asana practice, the use of the bandhas as well as a meditative approach are the corresponding physical components. Here briefly, is a small blueprint of how an asana and bandha practice can link the key practices of Isvara pranidhana, tapas, swadhyaya, vairaga, pratyhara, dharana, dhyana, and pranayama in an integrative and continuous whole.
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Katherine Riley (spiderr,
2/16/99 4:12:00 PM)
Hi Dana,
I also just use my videos and books to practice right
now - the time and financial crunch of finishing my
last semester of college doesn;t allow for taking
classes --- but soon I look forward to signing on with
an instructor. . . Welcome, and see you around
cyber-symposium-space.
- Katherine
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Without Differentiation Evolution Would
Get Boring (Shakti Das,
2/16/99 9:38:11 PM)
Yoga-Aba; The whole problem of "theism" seems to revolve around man's arrogance, anthropomor(phi)centrism, and chavenism. Once we drop that absurd idea, the organic and vital inter-connection of Mother, of evolutionary intelligence, of health, life, origin, and Source become self evident. In the diversity and differentiation we are the parts of the whole of creation and the creator and when we cease thinking in linear time, we are connected with Reality. It is in our forgetfulness that we become confused and it is thus in the yoga that we are -re-MEMBERED. The kabalists knew this and hence their teachings (and that of the Zohar) was meant to re-establish this wholesomeness, but their framework also had a built in diaspora. In daily process oriented (versus goal oriented) and artful/intuitive asana practice we can let go into the transverbal, go beyond the philosophy, fears, and attachments and REMEMBER once again and join and pulsate (in Spanda) with the Greater Community. If my asana practice doesn't give me that, then i have perverted it. People must ask what is it that they really want from yoga. Is it physical exercise, health, beauty, and ego gratification or is it something more? donny
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So, what is Prayer? (Yoga-Aba,
2/17/99 11:10:11 AM)
Donny, I'm beginning to get a sense of why prayer, and the model of Providence that it assumes, has become problematic to me. If G-d's name really is so ineffable that the only true experience of G-d is as you describe it, just listening to what's there when all the chatter is gone, what is prayer? Mightn't prayer just be part of the chatter? And perhaps that which one perceives in complete silence is all there is to Providence. Let me put it this way: Buddhism, it seems to me, kind of has its own, albeit sophistacted, version of reward and punishment. The suffering of the innocent can be explained by working out karma from past lives. In all this discussion of Patanjali, you've mentioned nothing similar. Is there some kind of attempt to reconcile The All with the suffering of the innocent? Regards, Phil
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Prayer and Changing Direction (Karma) (Shakti Das,
2/17/99 3:02:51 PM)
Excellent discussion! Yes, they are linked. We use prayer or mantra -- to create the intention and stage for the dialogue. If over used (and many do) then it just adds to the chatter (we are talking too much and not listening). G-d of course does not talk in English and if we were to hear her only in Greek, Sanskrit, Hebrew, or Chinese we probably would be filtering a lot. Prayer can be interactive and transformative, but for it to be effective we have to go beyond it -- to the unity in diversity -- and/or the diversity in the unity-- the place of true Integrity where both are true which is a place beyond separateness i.e., words. If the prayer, mantra, visualization or "spiritual practice does this (by calming the mind or helping us to focus our intent and direct the energies of transformation) than it is "functional"; otherwise I suspect that it may be part of what we must let go of. It's easy to get caught up on form and not see more deeply as to what is behind it -- from which it cam and to which it is going which leads us to the idea of karma (another subject?). WE ALL WERE BORN INTO INNOCENCE -- into purity by creation as part of that creation -- part of that GREAT DYNAMIC AND INTELLIGENT PROCESS. The only suffering is caused by ignorance -- by our forgetfulness of who we are -- by the corruption of the "citta" or its modifications where Reality is obscured (samskaras appear) and this is what Patanjali considers the seeds of dukha (or pain). The suffering of the innocent is a terribly disempowering concept, just as "bad" as the idea of an unjust God. All we need to do is wake up, and if we do not, we will stumble, trip, or suffer. This is what Buddha says and this is also what Patanjali says. To place an authority figure outside of ourselves to praise or blame -- who is in control of all of this is to create separation, spiritual alienation, duality and a self defeating situation whereas the point of even Judeo-Christian thought is: TO KNOW AND LOVE GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND ALL "THY" SOUL or something to that effect? Anything else is a corruption, sin, estrangement, Diaspora, separation, and a "falling away". In other words there may be different assumptions taken historically in the West versus the East, but if we scrutinize or meditate on it, we can understand that the aspiration and driving Spirit and/or spiritual goal was once the same in both regions. It is only the institutionalized belief systems, their conditioning, and cultural structures which dictate manmade belief systems which have reinforced these "apparent filters" and barriers that you and I can call Eastern and Western, but which Patanjali calls bondage. I see that you are sincerely struggling with these "culturally" inherited dialogues, but believe me, (:-) they are not G-d's, but man's. Consider the possibilities and options -- here.... Breathe into it and see what comes up. See where that leads. Is it a book that leads or do we follow the Living Path? love donny
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Frank Hannafey (Frank40,
2/18/99 6:32:57 PM)
Hi all, Belated thanks for your recent posts! Classes speed along here and it's the first time I have visited since the weekend. I am really enjoying this conversation. Erich, thank you, yes, the Now is a very helpful way to look at the experience. Your wonderful description of the ever present creative connectedness of the Now to the human body is beautiful. I really should try to read more about how yoga traditions view the Now. I sense it is/can be compatible with many other views of the divine-- in Christianity God is seen as eternal, immutable, etc. but always ever present. Thanks very much for sharing that with us. Donny, yes, I have heard of Matthew Fox's work but I have not read very much of it. I spent some time in Berkeley and he was in the area and his books were very popular there. I have read a few of his articles. But I do read some of the Christian mystics though....like St. Ignatius Loyola and St. John of the Cross. I bet they would be into yoga if they lived in our time! Yoga helped me catch my breath (almost literally) after a wild day...ever have fun and a sense of newness with the child's pose? For some reason, that really worked for me today. It seems to be a great pose when you are really tired and weary. And a big part of it I think was the act of kneeling...a gesture that seems to so much like prayer! I was so tempted to nap instead..but a very slow and gentle practice turned the entire day around and brought welcome peace to the rest of the day. Yes, I guess I must still be in beginner's mind! Namaste! Frank
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Welcome back Frank! (YogaSuz,
2/18/99 8:26:56 PM)
Frank, I'm glad you're back online. I find my prayer to just be opening myself up to listening for answers to questions I have. I try hard to be still and listen and I'm surprised at how often I receive answers. I've never learned how to pray, so I just do it the way I want to and don't try to follow a specific format. On the otherhand, I only do it when inspired, so it might be nice to have a regular way of approaching it. You say you pray every morning...do you have a format, a ritual, that you follow? Your friend, Suzanne
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
2/19/99 12:33:41 AM)
Suzanne, I loved these two lines in your post to Frank: "I've never learned how to pray, so I just do it the way I want to and don't try to follow a specific format. On the other hand, I only do it when inspired..." That's exactly what I do. I've found that one learns to meditate/pray/commune by doing it, by being willing to not know exactly what you are supposed to be doing when you mediate and simply going in there and letting the meditation teach you. Personally, I've refrained from scheduling it in, though I am not "against" doing that because a disciplined meditation practice can be very helpful in loosening the grip of one's conditioning. Instead, I've increased my ongoing inner listening; you know, sensing deeper into what one's deepest feelings really are on an ongoing basis throughout the day. When I do this I find myself WANTING to meditate more frequently, sometimes for short durations of time, sometimes longer. But I only sit down to meditate when I feel like it, and if I don't feel like meditating, then, instead, I do whatever it is I actually feel like doing (!) -- whatever that is. Meditation is an incredible topic. One of the big discoveries is that the Silence isn't silent, empty, vacuous, or void-like. The Silence is full-on universal participation and full of Knowing. The Emptiness is supremely Full. And you find this out when one's mind becomes quiet and shuts up for a few moments. . . and stays with one's actual now-experience. It's like what happens in Savasana. When you relax your body by letting go of tension, it's not that your body disappears and nothing is left. Instead, when you let go of the tension, the constricted sense of Self, what's left is the energetically clear experience of the Presence that you are. And the same thing mentally: When you let go of the tensions and worries in your mind and stop thinking for a few moments... and pay attention instead to what you find yourself experiencing when this is happening ... it's not that you disappear, you become more present! And the more present you are, the more meaningful your presence will be both for yourself and others. Thank you for being here.
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You Know It By This (tympanachus cupido,
2/19/99 1:52:39 PM)
"Wake up & listen to the music of IM." It's always there - queued up in the jukebox of the mind. The signal to noise ratio is up to us. Thanks for the reminder, Erich.
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Frank (Frank40,
2/19/99 6:14:49 PM)
Dear Suzanne and Erich, Thanks so much for the kind words of welcome...and for your wonderfully inspiring reflections on prayer and meditation. I'm so glad my wild schedule has let me visit again and be part of this conversation. I know, I know, I am to blame for losing control of my calender a bit the past few weeks. This seems "the" occupational hazard of our age. Suzanne, you asked about my approach to prayer in the early morning. It depends, but I generally approach it in a fluid, very open way, depending on how I feel. If I am feeling tired and unfocused, I often just try to be very silent and remain still, sometimes sitting in a comfortable chair in a loose lotus or half lotus position. I find my mind is often clear and not so active with thoughts in the morning so this time seems especially good for me. I know for many others the evenings are better. I sometimes, but not always, read some of the Jewish or Christian scriptures to start off, especially if I am feeling or wanting to somehow "focus" a bit. One part of my prayer that always seems to happen regularly in the morning is that I remember and pray for specific persons, for situations that others are struggling with, fears, illnesses, etc. I ask that they be blessed, cared for, loved. I do find that many people always appear (no visions mind you!) in my prayer, especially thoughts and memories of students, family, friends, situations at school, people I know who are hurting, lots of people come in and out of my early morning meditations. So I guess for me at least there is often a social element. I sometimes pray for guidance to respond well to a complex or conflictual situation at work, or for strength and insight in dealing with a student, sometimes I ask for strength when I feel weary, which seems too often of late! Will our lives ever slow down? I find that some sort of meditation in the early morning can "center" the day and help me to be more open and capable of listening during the day. Like you Suzanne, I am not sure that I have ever really "learned" to pray but I have over the years done some retreats. As you described Erich, I too seem to go with what I feel and try to be open to what happens. Freedom seems to be a really big part of it. But there is at times structure, as in what I describe here. But for me over the years I have discovered some approaches that seem to help me open up, I hope to God and to myself. Important among these are silence and stillness--especially during these early morning times. Erich, I love your reflection on the importance of slowing down the mind, even stopping thinking for a few moments. When this happens it seems so much more about love than about thought or rationality-- the later is where much of my day seems to be spent, so not thinking or at least slowing the mind down really is wonderful and this seems to move prayer to another level or place. A big part of my experience of prayer is attentiveness, noticing, seeing, hearing. Maybe in overly simple terms, for me prayer is mostly preparation, or it is like "showing up" and when I can do this with as limited an agenda as possible, with not any specific "stuff" to address often there are lots of amazing discoveries and surprises! At times, "the stuff" is important, at others it is not. It seems most real the fewer the thoughts. Thanks for this conversation! Namaste, Frank
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Suzanne LaForest (YogaSuz,
2/20/99 9:37:34 AM)
Frank and Erich, I am headed off for vacation this week, but I wanted to dash off a note to both of you before leaving. I also enjoyed this conversation a lot. I always imagine that the yoga masters have rigid schedules that they stick to ... you know, 3 hours of meditation, 2 hours of asana, then breakfast. It's nice to hear that it isn't always that way, no matter how advanced your practice is. I think we all know from experience that sometimes we can get into these patterns, but other times it doesn't fit into our lives. Frank, thanks for sharing your morning experience. I can visualize you sitting in your chair in the morning enjoying a quiet moment. It sounds like a lovely way to start the day. Suzanne
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Bob Cox (tympanachus cupido,
2/20/99 3:52:12 PM)
Good to see you back with time to share, Frank. Do you, on the whole, enjoy your work?
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Frank Hannafey (Frank40,
2/22/99 5:37:08 AM)
Hi Bob, Hope you are well. Yes, love my work, but at various times of the semester the students are swarming! They are fun...it is like being a parent 100 times over each semester. I do not "parent" them even when they look for this...but have to listen a lot. Books sometimes are easier to respond to! How is yoga for you these days? Frank
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
2/22/99 11:05:58 PM)
I am here and enjoying catching up on what has been on the site. Too busy to post much, just wanted to say hello. Like the new handle Yoga-Aba, love Yogamama
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Still Moving Into Soreness (tympanachus cupido,
2/23/99 10:37:48 AM)
Frank: I'm about as well as I've ever been - certainly happier, but SuZ must share the credit for that. I've been more fit but I'm at about 90% of what's possible with some downhill skiing to complement the yoga this year. We've got a flu bug around here (hammered the kids) that only seemed to affect the joints for SuZ and me for about 10 days. Lost a little ground but I've come to enjoy the edges where ever they hang. I've been adding a little light, high rep, weight work, swimming and plenty of hot tub yoga to the mix. I need a sponsor (Erich gets his sponsorship the hard way - lots of "lost" weekends and time away from home and his lovely bride). The cat (an Aby named Lady Bast but fondly referred to as the "dumb ass cat") likes to hang out with me when I'm doin' yoga. She got locked in the yoga room the other day (not my fault, I hope) and pooped on SuZ's yoga mat for which I was not completely grateful but I do admire her discrimination. Glad to hear your efforts at work are aflowin' despite the time crunch. Any quick observations on the current (last 18-22 years) state of parenting as reflected in your experiences with the students?
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Frank (Frank40,
2/28/99 2:57:49 AM)
Bob, It is great to hear that so much yoga is happening for you of late. As for parenting undergraduates, they seem to need and want this without knowing or admitting it. I suppose it has to do with lots of instability in their lives, and questions about the future. But alas, I see my major task being to teach them! But yet an important part of teaching is giving example and encouraging, something parents must do I suspect! Wishes to SuZ.... Frank PS Did a nice afternoon yoga retreat yesterday, 3 hours of great yoga, but, I am a bit sore today. Perhaps another hot shower will help....!?
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thanks, - to everyone (lars, 3/6/99
3:09:43 PM)
for what is happening - being shared - as it were - here. Really enjoying reading it - as in - being human - here - being wired - here - being here. period. Joy and enjoy - and am.
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experiencing joy and enjoyment, that is -
not to mention - experimenting with (lars, 3/6/99
3:13:53 PM)
both and all
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Bob Cox (crotalus,
3/6/99 4:09:11 PM)
Good ta see ya Lars! Starting to hint of Spring in your neck of the woods? I've begun to extract the heavy heavy fuel from the Symposium. I have just finished the Asanas topic and have indexed the threads by subject (loosely) and posted it on the Web page. Have a look! People who first encounter Erich on his Web page will see what a tasty experience the Symposium can be by links to these Topic digests from the Community page.
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
3/7/99 10:56:15 AM)
Bob, Wow!!! That's really good. I just looked at your compilation of what we've been doing together in this symposium... and (again) wow. That was fun reading. We've been doing good work! Thanks for putting it together like that. Was that fun for you?
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You Betchem Red Ryder! (tympanachus cupido,
3/8/99 5:26:43 PM)
Some good stuff in here! Fun to be the editor - tedious to do the work. I discovered I was having a hard time proving what I was claiming about the Symposium we have here in the article about on-line yoga I'm writing. So, I went back for the goods - always good to do you homework first. ;-( Next piece: The "best" of Core of Goodness
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
3/8/99 11:36:08 PM)
What were the claims you were trying to prove?
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Bob Cox (tympanachus cupido,
3/9/99 4:11:58 PM)
I am claiming that participation in the Yoga Symposium is worthwhile enough to compete with yoga in the time budget. Now as you might guess, I'm experiencing some difficultites constructing an argument that withstands that kinda heat. So maybe it's variety or socialization or self-expression [horrors! ;-) ]) needs that are also being met in these tasty discourses on living with yoga if not strictly "living yoga." It's new ground here it seems to me - so hep me, hep me, or hip me or whatever it is I need (that's a plea to the lot ya - "you'll be the freaks" ya know when people come to look! - it's your words underneath it all!-jeez, maybe we should just stick to ourselves over here? That's a bad idea - to much love and good words to share!) to properly testify about the profound sharing and discovering that seems to characterize our deliberations here. If this feels a bit like the tail eatin' snake Ourobouros - a real time community self description project - terrific! Probably been done before but I'm sure we can offer up the benchmark. I can change back into the guise of our prostrate bro, crotalus, if it'll help....
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Deep S..t (Shakti Das,
3/9/99 5:54:31 PM)
Probably it's different things for different folks (can't speak for others)...but i like "the deepening of the SEARCH". Maybe you can see in the left brain terms of a search engine -- an extension -- a bridge -- a probe -- and an experiment! Is there a need to define it yet or is the soup still cooking? I like what you said for starters; "too much love and good words to share!) to properly testify about the profound sharing and discovering that seems to characterize our deliberations here." Tasty or does it need some more chiles? Dressing on the side? bro
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Suggested graphic (YogaSuz,
3/9/99 8:15:48 PM)
Bob, I had this tasty idea for a graphic I was going to do for my web page, but I'll offer it up to you for your article, since I don't have time to implement it. The graphic is a screen capture of a search dialog box. The text being searched for is "The meaning of life." Suzanne
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Now we're cookin' - keep it up! (tympanachus cupido,
3/9/99 9:12:20 PM)
Whose search box do you suggest? Hotbot - where we have Moving Into Stillness indexed is down at the moment but might serve. We'll see what "search for life" turns up. Here's what it would look like - you like?Or should it say Search The WEB?
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Always More chiles! (tympanachus cupido,
3/9/99 9:14:16 PM)
Well, maybe not with habenero ;-)
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
3/10/99 11:03:47 AM)
Yahoo! would be good, too, as the search box. Yeah, yahoo! That's what it feels like.
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Flow (gypsy boy) (Shakti Das,
3/11/99 6:09:36 PM)
Still to frame it may lessen the flow and glow? i like living in yurts, tents, and tepees and then am easier able to gypsy on. BTW Morris Berman is doing a study on nomadic ways of life versus sedentary with the thesis that sedentary life styles tend to breed hierarchal, authoritarian, chauvenistic and totalitarian societies where nomadic life tends toward egalitarian. However the question itself may be flawed and this organic thesis may well change. If i was trying to project the future (rather than to analyze the past), i would favor a kind and gentle nuturing enivironment where all the land mines and pot holes have been carefully removed. Sort of like a safe place to unwind and do asana in-- unwind, let it all hang out, let go, and get the inner juice (hormones) flowing. I've been looking to set up a yoga studio in this neck of the woods taht can have this uplifting and safe feeling-- expansive and exhilarating feeling - but so far nada... in the moment gypsy boy
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Searching (YogaSuz,
3/12/99 8:52:21 AM)
Well, I thought that it would just be a generic search box...I'd probably doctor up one from Word, but delete some items that were detracting from the graphic. However, since your article is about the web, I love Erich's suggestion of using the Yahoo search box. Suzanne
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eloisa vargas (eloisa vargas,
3/13/99 9:04:12 PM)
hello Erich I am yoga teacher in Porto Alegre, Brazil. I am studying you by Internete through your site. You got my attention for the way as you looks at the yoga. I always waited one day to study with a teacher that had this thought line. Here in Brazil I found never. For this reason, I decided to do the things of my way. My philosophical base comes from Krishnamurti and reading the things that you write, I discovered because I like so much of its style. Krishnamurti influenced so much you with relationship to me. When it is learned with Krishnamurti, it is very difficult to find something that can give continuity to the that was learned of him. I found in you and I am thankful because you have been helping me very auspiciously you doesn't know. I don't know you but I can affirm with certainty that you are the best teacher of yoga in this world. You teach the true yoga. If it is possible, could you answer these questions, please? How many hours of class could a yoga teacher make daily (everyday of the week) without harming himself? Does your book have translation for the Portuguese or Spanish? Is your book being sold in Brazil? observation: excuse the mistakes because my english is terrible. namaste, eloisa
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Bob Cox (tympanachus cupido,
3/15/99 9:44:54 AM)
Your English is a LOT better than my Spanish! Welcome to the Yoga Symposium, Eloisa! Someone will be along shortly to take a crack (a baseball term, I think; you comprende baseball jargon?) at your questions.
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
3/15/99 11:49:23 AM)
Dear Eloisa, Greetings! I looked up Porto Alegre in the atlas to see where you are. What a beautiful part of the world. Thank you for writing. Let me say, first, I am happy to answer your questions to the best of my ability. Please do not be hesitant to write, to ask more questions, and to participate and share here. It’s fun (meaningful) for me and a lot of people are listening in. I feel like I’m learning so much. Therefore, so long as it feels meaningful to you, please, let’s together deepen our learning and increase our conscious awareness of our Unity by dialoging back and forth. And I hope others will jump in and share, also. Yes, Krishnamurti was a very big influence on me. I was a student at his high school in England when I was a teenager. I feel very fortunate to have been around him as much I was. Seeing someone live the truth at such a high level is transformational. I began to believe—because I was witnessing the living proof—that enlightened or sane living was possible. Hope not only came alive within me again, but it became obvious that optimism is the natural attitude one finds oneself having as one becomes increasingly clear and realistic. The prevailing attitude (in my mind, anyway) used to be that reality is a bummer, that if you were truly realistic you would be so aware of how depressing life is you’d just go into a big slump. But that isn’t what I found. That IS what I used to think, and I am familiar with the feeling-tone of that perspective—with what it feels like when that is what you believe. But the more I looked into it, and the more I realized and acknowledged that I really didn’t know what Reality was/is, and therefore should stop thinking I did, as well as stop believing in all the projections and possible realities that could manifest as a logical outcome of living based on those misconceptions—and, instead, get into the thought-free experience of it as much as possible in order to have a clear experience... so that my new "conclusions" about Reality were grounded in Fact... the more my perceptions changed. The same old world started looking different, not so scary for one thing. When thinking slows down, you do not cease to exist. You’re still conscious and aware, but now you are clear—no longer imposing limited conceptions on something as vast as the Unlimited(!)—and what you find yourself being aware of is Reality as it is... which, fortunately, is very different from the conclusions about Reality arrived at based on data from the five physical senses only. This is very much in keeping with K’s teaching, I believe, not that it matters. So, to answer your questions. . . 1) How much to teach is an individual matter. It all depends on whether you are getting burned-out or not, and how much you are enjoying it, and how many classes you can realistically do and still have plenty of energy for your own practice—the more important element in all of this. Don’t equate the yoga you do in class when teaching with personal practice. If you are getting physically hurt by teaching as much as you do, teach less. If you are not wanting to teach because you are doing too much of it, (you may for example be getting tired of hearing yourself say the same old thing again) then teach less. If you find you are not practicing on your own very much, teach less and practice more. The creativity in your teaching will arise or grow out of your personal practice. If you are not doing your own yoga you will probably be teaching out of memory, rather than inspiration. I do best when I teach one class per day. That way I have plenty of leisure time for my own practice and I am not tired from having taught too much. This is not always the case, however. I teach two classes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and Workshops, Retreats and Teacher Trainings are intense all-day many-day events. I love doing yoga and I love teaching and talking about it, and when either of these begins to feel compromised—if I start not enjoying teaching for example because I am doing too much of it, or if I’m too tired from other things and therefore don’t feel like practicing—then I do whatever I’ve got to do to get back into balance. . . so that I’m enjoying what I’m doing. For a number of years I was teaching three classes a week and one workshop per month. I didn’t make much money teaching that little, but I had a lot of free time (!) and that was more important to me. But different people have different rhythms, different functions. I would suggest that you rig it so that you are always only doing that which feels most right, most congruent with your integrity. How much are you teaching? Does it feel like too much, too little? Are you getting burned-out or is it still fun? Remember, if it’s not fun, something is wrong. For me, teaching has been and is an avenue of tremendous learning. 2) With regard to my book, I don’t know if it is being sold in Brazil or not. People have told me they’ve seen it in bookstores in India and other countries. It has not been translated (yet) into Portuguese or Spanish. Email me your mailing address and I’ll send you one.
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eloisa vargas (eloisa vargas,
3/16/99 10:40:26 PM)
Hello Erich Thank you for answering my questions.You were wonderful. I have a lot of things that it would like to place here even so I have many limitations with English. I need to use a Translator (Globalink) and, sincerely, I and my translator didn't understand each other very well. Not always he translates correctly what intend to express. Really, I consider it not very intelligent. I don't trust him. Then, I hesitate in joining to conferences , but... I will try. If I write something totally strange, please, sorry and correct me. I will say what yoga means for me: (I will speak about Yoga in the conference about asanas... I think I am out of place, excuse me ) I studied architecture and fashion drawing. I worked a lot in these areas and with happiness and satisfaction. One day these things stopped of giving me happiness and I stopped with them. If you don't place the heart in which you do, the things die naturally although you think that was still being devoted. I will place like this: the things leave you, they abandon you but, unconsciously, it was you that provoked. This way, we passed for new stages, new things, always in search of the things that we really liked to do. The most interesting is that didn't notice immediately where we are going. We struggled and we resisted provoking frustration feelings. In fact, we are being addressed for the things that we loved to do. When the fight ceases, we surrendered and we let to happen. For more absurd than it can seem, what truly loved to do, one day will appear. We only needed to let to flow without fight. Then, in my life, the undeniable fact appeared: the thing that I really like to do is to learn, to practice and to teach Yoga! I practice Yoga to many years but I am teaching yoga to two years. Really, when I began to research to teach, I began to learn. That, I can say that make yoga correctly to two years. Unlike of all the teachers that I know, I didn't have any great master for to teach me. When somebody ask me about my formation in Yoga, I do not what to say. I learned certain techniques with some teaches but none of them was in the levels that I waited. Some were very mystic, other very proud of they be " masters ", other, really stranges... Several times I registered in a class and I only frequented the first class. I leave running for never more to return... I continued practicing and I began to teach in the way that I understood to be Yoga. I made the things in my way using the techniques that I had learned associated to the teachings of Krishnamurti. I already studied Krishnamurti at a long time. All the things that I learned with him spoke about the essence of the true yoga. The peoples do not know very much about the essence of the yoga. This essence can be understood through the things that Krishnamurti said. With him, we learned that the alive experience of God is possible for us, for everyone. We learned that God (or any other name for this) cannot be in the thought, in the memory, in the past. God is alive and it can only be where we are: in the now, in the Real. (Erich, you already talked about this. You were already with him and you saw the force of this man. I never met with K´s personally but I feel its force through the things that he wrote.) He talked about changes. Mental change, life change. The humanity to walk for one direction. He showed another direction: the inverse. What is the Yoga ? Yoga is other think to not to be this? This is Yoga! Changes, deep and significant changes in our lives. Otherwise, it is not Yoga. I know that you understand this, I read what you write but the point is: this road is not easy for anyone to understand. Most of yoga techer´s still don´t understand this. For this reason they teach more about Hindu religion and other things.The students are full of culture, gods and nirvanas. Only intellect! The essence of Yoga is never transmitted. I already wrote too much for who doesn't speak anything in English. I won't revise because I am capable to give up of posting. About asanas, what is CHATUSPADA PEETHAM ? I don´t know what is this. this asana consists of the list of your tape for class 95-2: (june 26,1995) in the site Books & Videos. Some asanas I don't know, at least with the names there presented. Bob, I know what is crack. In Brazil we say "RACHAt " or "PEGA" . Voce poderia praticar seu espanhol comigo para que eu não me sinta tão " estranha no ninho". As vezes penso que falar ingles é pior do que o Sanscrito. Do you understand me? thank you for posting me. Namaste, eloisa
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
3/17/99 12:16:32 AM)
Chatuspada Peetham is Purvottanasana with bent legs. Is that clear? It's a pose & name I learned from Desikachar. Most of the Sanskrit names I use are found in Iyengar's "Light on Yoga."
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I get the drift.. (tympanachus cupido,
3/17/99 11:28:11 AM)
Keep on posting, Eloisa - it's a delight to read you. Here's some Yoga Symposium dialog on K and the Huxleys that speaks to your concerns. <Yoga Conference.5.63-66>
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Welcome (YogaSuz,
3/17/99 1:00:14 PM)
Welcome Eloisa. You speak beautifully about things that have been on my mind recently. I am happy to read that all your studies are leading you to the conclusion that yoga is not about intellectual Hindu concepts but about experiencing and giving joy. I look forward to learning more about your classes. I have also had many teachers and experiences similar to you...that just because a teacher calls himself a master doesn't mean that I want to follow him. Also, thanks for getting Erich to post up that great reply. I learned a lot from his response! Suzanne
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eloisa vargas (eloisa vargas,
3/19/99 9:35:28 PM)
Thank you Suzzane. Do you know about a thing?
This conference is about asanas, right? Well, you could
talk about this.
Which the postures that you more it uses in class,
which is its favorite sequence... things alike this,
about asanas and about class.
For who teaches Yoga and wants to learn, I think that
this is a good issue.
I would love to hear about this: to hear about
another teachers' experience.
Bob, thank you. I opened the link and I liked a lot.
K is even so. If Mrs. Huxley knew more about him...
He seemed very rude, sometimes. Other times, he gets
me to irritate.
This, is K. A paradox. Intriguing and paradoxical.
The superior " people " in any sense, irritated it
deeply.
He didn't make concessions. He literally put an end to
the personal party of anyone, not mattering who it was.
Aldous Huxley made the foreword of the book THE FIRST
AND THE LAST FREEDOM. He mentions words of K. on a
similar issue: to help people and to be or not to be a
guru.
I like this part:
" The education that doesn't teach us to think, but
only what to think, it is an education that requests a
ruling class of shepherds and lords.
The idea of to guide somebody is antisocial and
anti-spiritual.
To the man that exercises it, the leadership brings the
satisfaction of its desire of power.
For the ones that they are guided, the satisfaction of
the desire of certainty of safety .
The guru supplies a type of opium."
We asked then: And that you are doing? Are not you
helping us and acting how our guru?
No ", K answers, " I am not proceeding as your guru,
because, before everything, I am not providing you any
satisfaction.
I am not prescribing you what you should do, of moment
to moment or in the daytime in day but I am only
showing you a thing;
you can take or to leave this thing, and that depends
on you and not of me.
I don't ask you thing some, nor your adoration, nor
your flattery, nor your insults, nor your gods.
I tell you: here it is the fact; take it or leave it.
And most of you will leave it, for the very obvious
reason of in him not to find SATISFACTION ".
(and the text proceeds in this same line. Brilliant!)
Radical! Polemic!
He didn't give us anything... on the contrary: it
removed!
It put an end to our toys.
Erich, thank you for to answer my question about
Chatuspada. Now, I know. This is alike Ustrasana but
with hands in the floor.
I will try to find the Iyengar book. I have been
studying Iyengar through other sources.
Namaste
Eloisa Vargas
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My Fav Quote of K (tympanachus cupido,
3/20/99 8:59:28 AM)
I do not want to belong to any organisation of a spiritual kind; please understand this.... If an organisation be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness,which lies in the discovery for himself of that absolute, unconditioned Truth. -
Krishnamurti (follow link for full text) Here's some writing of Kramer and Alstad from their The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power you might enjoy (as well as their yoga and relationship articles indexed on the same page). Most of this material can also be found at The White Lotus Foundation
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
3/20/99 9:48:55 AM)
I think it would be good to get into class sequencing also. I'll initiate it when I get back from Santa Barbara (in a week) if no one else has by then. But, just to clarify, Chatuspada Peetham is this: Sit on the floor with your legs bent and feet flat, feet hip-width apart. Lean back on your hands. Then lift your seat up into the air until your thighs, torso and head are in line and horizontal. Then keep lifting your hips and curve your head backward. This is not a difficult pose. I often use it as part of the opening of a class. Eloisa, I sent the book yesterday. You should be getting it soon.
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eloisa vargas (eloisa vargas,
3/25/99 10:05:14 PM)
Erich, I find fantastic to speak about sequences. Asanas in sequence. I am awaiting. Do you accept a suggestion? Here it is: Explain to me which the time that you use to flow of an asana for another during the sequence. Do you recommend a brief stop, a " landing ", or a continuous flow? Which the relationship that exists among Ashtanga, Power Yoga and Yoga Flow? That is all the same thing or have differences between Power Yoga and Yoga Flow ? I know perfectly that Ashtanga is the base for the whole modern Yoga and therefore being the base for Power Yoga and Yoga Flow, but I am sometimes confused when I am studying because the teachers don't explain right that is a thing and what is another. When I speak " sequences ", I am referring to the following: 1) sequences or order of the asanas. Which the asana that should precede such, and which should come soon after. Things like this. 2) and sequence for Yoga Flow, where the Warriors enter (Virabhadrasanas) and other radical postures. If the sequence be not chosen carefully, it provokes lesions. I think that the difference between a normal yoga class and a Yoga Flow class is simply the time of stop in the posture before moving for the next. Would be this? Is the name Yoga Flow correct for you? Here in Brazil we called Yoga Fluxo. It is a series of postures flowing without repeating and without stopping. I understood Chatuspada, finally. " plants or Sole of the feet in the ground and not chest of the foot in the ground ". Like you said: purvottanasana with bent legs (and sole of the feet in the ground). Thank you, peace eloisa
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(YogaSuz,
3/31/99 11:48:33 AM)
Eloisa, I think what you are calling "Yoga Flow" is called Ashtanga Yoga or Power Yoga here in the States. I'm curious what you would define "Ashtanga Yoga" to be, since you say it is the root of all yoga. Perhaps you are referring to Pantajali's 8 limbs of yoga? Suzanne
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eloisa vargas (eloisa vargas,
4/1/99 10:30:22 PM)
Suzanne No. I am not referring Patanjali. Estou me referindo ao "estilo Ashtanga" desenvolvido por K.Pattabhi Jois. This style, it is mentioned as the root of the modern yoga. I have been studying and I discovered that now is practiced Yoga inside of the following styles: Anusara, ashtanga,Bikram,Integral,Iyengar, Kripalu,Kundaline, Sivananda,Viniyoga e outros ... I make confusion because I don't know if Power Yoga is inside a style, a technique of a style, if it is the same thing that yoga Flow. This is not very important, they are just names, Yoga is Yoga and it doesn't depend of names and nor of own Patanjali.But, for the communication, it is important. You are saying that ashtanga is power yoga in States and that is the same thing that yoga Flow. Is this? Is the style Vinyasa, is the same thing also? You could talk me about the style that you teach. Which the asanas that you use more and and so on... Which the postures that bring problems for its students, which the ones that them more they like... (Are you understanding my "Latin English" well? ) I wait you, a hug Eloisa
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Words (Shakti Das,
4/1/99 11:45:35 PM)
Hello Eloisa; Ashtanga is ancient sanskrit word for eight limbs. It refers mostly to Patanjali Yoga Sutras BUT Patabai Jois more recently has called his style of flow yoga (vinyasa) as Ashtanga Yoga so it is confsuing because Ancient Ashtanga Yoga is quite different from the Patabi Jois style. Too bad? So many people here call Patabai Jois style of vigorous yoga flow Power Yoga so there is less confusion? Vinyasa is Sanskrit for flow, and here in the States, vinyasa is used mostly to describe the method of flow taught by Desikachar (Krishnacharya's son). In other words by Patabi Jois teachers calling their yoga as ashtanga it has created much semantic confusion in the West BUT the word POWER yoga is less confusing (but from what I hear Patabi Jois doesn't like the word. Gosh what a mess? Power yoga is getting very popular here (it is very fiery is it not?) There are many yoga flow styles besides power yoga (Patabi Jois) and Desikachar. Here in California, Kali Ray teaches a flow sequence in Tri-yoga, and even at Kripalu there is a natural yoga flow (or sahaj yoga) that was taught. Surya Namskar is a yoga flow also? I like flow, but i do not like to repeat the same asan over and over just to get more fire started rather I like doing different new asanas or my favorite asanas so that i get more energy and joy and love. I like to make up my own flow new everyday. What type of yoga do you teach? A big hug Donny
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eloisa vargas (eloisa vargas,
4/3/99 1:53:14 PM)
Yes Donny, it was much clearer. Asthanga (Patanjali's 8 limbs of Yoga) it is not "Pattabhi Jois's Asthanga ". But, Pattabhi Jois's Asthanga is same Power Yoga practiced in States, Australia, Canada. Here in Brazil, Power Yoga is not still very popular. Teachers that practice it exist but it is not popular. I believe that my style, is still less popular... I use movements of DaoYin and Tai Chi Chuan as preliminaries for the sequence Vinyasa. I use, as opening, a technique called " opening of the channels of energy ", based on the movement of the prana unblocking the articulations. Best saying: unblocking articulations to improve the circulation of the prana, because the energy circulates better when we unblocked the articulations. They are circular movements and of stretching.It is a soft, delicate, beautiful flow. The notions of axis of energy, center of energy and now, " lines of energy " (I learned with Erich), they are fundamental in these movements. This series has 6 minutes. You begin to feel the heat arising for its body. When you are deepened in this, you notice the energy flowing for the body. Sometimes I use other series for opening that is a sequence of postures set in Liangong that I adapted of Yoga Taoísta for Hindu Yoga. It uses the same movements of DaoYin even so it is longer. (more or less 17 minutes).They are excellent for opening of the chest, to release shoulders and to stabilize knees, ankles, feet. After this preparation, we passed to the that I call " FLOW ", or " Vinyasa " (that is the same thing) or POWER YOGA or ASTHANGA's Pattabhi. Now the class is more vigorous, stronger, hot. The sequences are not always the same . I don't get to be always repeating the same thing. I think that the point is : CREATIVITY ! Mixing the postures and doing with that they flow in a natural order... Of course, I prepare the whole sequence BEFORE, but even so, I try to present and to create something new inside of the same old postures. The creativity happens in the order of the postures what does come before, what does come later, it is not? The postures are the ones that everybody uses: Salutes, Warriors, swan, stork (Uttanasana) , lunges, jumps, triangles and attached, dogs, snake, pigeon and its variants ,plank, chaturanga, lateral extension in angle (parsva konasana), arches and all the intermediary postures. Moving in the silence... " Moving in the Stillness ", as Erich says. This defines for me, Vinyasa. To end, the last part of my class includes the classic asanas mainly the floor asanas: Sarvangasana, halasana, Matsyendrasana, prassaritas, soft lengthenings and inversions . I practiced Tai Chi for some time, I don't like the pure practice even so I should recognize that very interesting movements exist there. We can always adapt and to use everything that we learned. Nothing is useless. It is as I think. If you pay attention, will see that is everything the same thing. It changes the external form but the essence is the same. Therefore, we adapted this " external " form for our personal or cultural way of doing the movement. But, what has importance it is not the name, the word and nor the origin of the movement (if it is Hindu, Chinese, American...). I think that what is really important, it is the quality of the mind that is behind the movement. The technique is very important and the style also but they are just the base for what it is very larger: the own knowledge that is developed in the attention during the practice. But, of course I know that so that we can communicate, we needed the names, of the words, of the description of the techniques and styles. That is important for me because I am learning for books and for contact with people like you. If you can, tell me more things on this. I will love this! Thank you. Hugs, peace... Eloisa Bob, thank you once again for the excellent links. I have been studying a lot thanks to you. But, I didn't get to open the two last that you ordered. When I try to open the screen it shows a mistake message saying " not found ". I will continue trying. Hugs.
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(Shakti
Das, 4/5/99 11:29:49 AM)
I would love to experience your class. It seems very mature -- something that only a yoga teacher who has accomplished personal growth could know and teach -- the necessity of warmups (to avoid injury and facillitate the movement of energy through the joints), the creative flows to sustain a certain amoint of transformative (alchemical) level of heat, the floor exercises (i love), and the most important as you say so well "I think that what is really important, it is the quality of the mind that is behindthe movement. The technique is very important and the style also but they are just the base for what it is very larger: the own knowledge that is developed in the attention during the practice". Yes, too many here are seduced by the asana as an end, where it is a vehicle for that love (which is yoga) to come into our lives. Keeping that focus is both most valuable and very rare! Victory to that love and passion! Please continue to share your love and that love will grow! Love and a big hug donny
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eloisa vargas (eloisa vargas,
4/6/99 11:43:32 PM)
ERICH I received the book!!!! I am very happy. You were wonderful! The book is better than I waited. It is very clear, very didactic. The book arrived in the interval among two classes. In the second class, I presented a posture of your book. It was very pretty! I have 6 classes. Each class has two sessions a week. Each class with 3 or 4 students. I can make a very personal work with them. Now, I will begin to study for your book and I will change a lot of things... I have my own studio and being like this, I can make the things in my way. I don't believe that I am with this book in my hands... That is too good! Nice. Really. I think that will be the first yoga teacher in Porto Alegre / Brazil that will teach the method Erich Schiffmann. I need now some two weeks and... await me! My classes will be very very better. Thank you for the support. I would like to be your student, personally, live. I Tried a good master and you live so far away... I don't have plans now to leave of Brazil to study Yoga. When I could make this, (because I had time and money), I didn't do. Nothing attracts me at that time to the point of doing me to leave of my country. Perhaps the things change and I can go one day to Santa Mônica and to learn direct with you. Jorge, my husband, supports me a lot in this.But, for while, I have the book... Thank you. This book is very important for me. Paz, and happiness always for you a hug eloisa Donny, you were very kind in relation to my class. Thank you for your attention and comments. paz, amor (peace , love ) Eloisa
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
4/7/99 5:37:01 PM)
Eloisa, I'm so glad the book arrived safe and sound. I'm thrilled to be able to give it to you. paz, amor Erich
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
4/8/99 5:07:47 PM)
Hello Eloisa, welcome to the site. I enjoy reading your posts from so far away. I have just finished doing Erich's ten day teacher training. It was wonderful, transformational, I recomend you set your sights on doing one some day. We learned alot about sequencing. One of the consepts that was helpful to me was having "goal Poses". Wheel, urdva danurasana, for example or splits, hamunasana I think it is, and then working on the poses that will prepare the class to do these poses. For wheel one would work on opening the shoulders, the front of the thighs and the spine. Doesn't matter if some students won't be able to do the full goal pose, they have gotten some great opening in that direction. This method gives the class continuety and variety. Erich starts each class and ends each class with about 5 minutes of seated meditation which I love and use, if not always 5 minutes. Namaste, Alix
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Sue S (sue5, 4/9/99
11:17:36 AM)
Hello. I'm very new to this group and I have to say...Erich Shiffmann, you're my hero! This is the most beautiful thing in the world to have as a resource! Thank you very much to all who got this symposium going! I teach yoga in Portland, OR...12 classes a week. I'm mostly influenced by Mr. Desikachar's tradition. One of my classes is for kids, grades K-5. Avg. age is 9. It's an afterschool program, through our Parks & Rec. Dept. My question...is anyone out here teaching kids? If so, what are your techniques for teaching them to focus and slow down a little? I teach a lot of vinyasa flows and I've even had them draw their favorite yoga posture (my attempt at getting them to focus more). Any advice on from anyone is appreciated. Namaste, Sue
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Howdy Sue! (tympanachus cupido,
4/9/99 1:37:26 PM)
Tasty testimony! Enjoy yurself here. Tell us more about teaching the kids - maybe open a topic?
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
4/11/99 10:03:17 PM)
Sue, I'm sure someone here can give you some advice. I taught high school age kids for five years in England at Krishnamurti's school, but that's a different psychology than K-5. I'm curious to see what you and others come up with. Keep me/us informed, please.
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Welcome Sue (YogaSuz,
4/12/99 6:16:31 AM)
Welcome aboard! Sue, I'd like to hear more about your kids class as I have an 11 year old boy coming to live with me soon who is interested in yoga and I'm wondering what will work with him. I did once attend a kids class with a friend of mine who has a 4 year old. The teacher mainly focused on poses with animal names (cobra pose was called "snake pose," and she had the students hiss as they did it, and she also did dog pose and cat pose and lion pose). The teacher didn't worry so much about having them do the poses right but instead focused just on the joy of moving. The teacher did some cute things like gave the kids smelly stickers to put on their chests and in certain poses where she wanted them to drop their chin to their chest she say, "smell your sticker." On the other hand, it seemed like the teacher struggled with the age differences in the class -- lots of 6-7 year old girls and then a couple of 10-11 year old boys who were capable of doing more. 12 class a week is a lot. Is it your only job? Suzanne
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Sue S (sue5, 4/12/99
11:36:13 AM)
Hi Suzanne...Thanks you. Yep...12 classes a week is a lot. I'm working on getting it down to no more than 8 per week so I can study/practice more. It's my full time job...I wandered into a yoga class 8 yrs. ago and it completely transformed my life...I discovered my "inner whisper". Erich calls it "prompting" I think. And in listening to it, trusting, following it, I noticed how struggle, blocks, whatever seemed to disappear. Yoga has made my heart smile! Anyway...back to the kids. The kids come right into yoga after classes at 3pm. It's an hour-long class. I teach them all the animal poses...they love Lion. One time I asked them to give me an animal name and then I'd show them the pose and then the group does it. The first time I did that they yelled out "koala pose" :) That was when I realized how much I was going to learn from these children! The sticker thing on the chest is a very good idea...I'm definitely going to try that one. My main objective with them is focus. They have really good attention for about 15 min. then they start to lose it and climb the walls and chase each other and I have to round them up. That's when I have them sit down and we draw yoga postures (they really have to concentrate to draw a pose) or sometimes play a game "yogi says" (like simon says). I'm trying to keep it fresh and new for them each time...so all ideas are welcome...I'll try new ideas out and let everyone know. Have a great day! Sue
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
4/15/99 2:43:58 PM)
Welcome Sue, I teach a 45 minute class to 3rd and 4th graders. I have the same issues with attention , though not as much as you do I'm sure. Here's a couple of things I found work well. Walking around in a big slow circle and doing movement interspersed with poses for example, walking around stretched up in urdva hastasana, maybe on the toes and then shrinking down to a static squat. Walking around in squat like a frog and then growing into a static tree. They love to play down dog bridge, last person crawles through to the front. Sun salutes bored them pretty quick until I put four people in the middle and everyone else did salutes facing the center in a big circle, rotating people until everyone had a turn in the center. We do a lot of balancing poses to build concentration. They enjoy partner work too, Backbend over childs pose, partner bridge when you hold onto each others wrists and pull standing in a half uttanasana, then slowly squat while you keep the pressure on. Teaches team work too. They get restles super quick in seated poses and don't seem to like basic standing poses to much either. It's bad having to try to make everyone stay with the yoga, but if some kids run around the mood is broken. Yoga Journal just had a big article on kids. I never read the whole thing but I think it was there that they said if the kids come in wound up , give them active poses, if they are calm, do some quite poses to match their mood ( not to mention take advantage of an unusual situation.) Namaste, YM
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Sue S (sue5, 4/16/99
8:57:03 AM)
Thank you! Thank you! Very helpful suggestions. I'll try them out at next Tuesday's class. Have a great day! Namaste, Sue
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Frank (Frank40,
4/18/99 6:24:37 AM)
Hi all, I am back after some weeks away-- the semester is so hectic this time a year! But, it is a delight to read the recent posts....and yoga keeps me going! Wishes to you all. Namaste! Frank
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Kids topic up (YogaSuz,
4/19/99 6:59:13 AM)
BTW, I made a new topic for Kids and Yoga. Suzanne
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eloisa vargas (eloisa vargas,
4/30/99 10:49:17 PM)
After 15 days I got to enter in the conference. Something happened because the page of the topics opened even so without the topics. All the other items of the site were working, less the conference topics. Did it go a blockade to the South Americans? The whole site was very, very slow. (Today, it delayed more or less 30 minutes to open Asanas and I used refresh twice.) Since I was disabled for the yoga Symposium, I decided to open a community in COMMUNITYWARE. I spoke to a group of yoga apprentices and with people that frequent groups for own knowledge. They loved the idea. We are beginning. Today he/she has 7 members. The community is YOGABRASIL. I think will be very nice. The language, of course, is the Portuguese even so I am opening the topic INTERNATIONAL FRIENDS in English and me it would be very happy and honored with the visit and your support.Then, they are everybody invited to give a looked at in YOGABRASIL and, perhaps, if it is possible, to post some thing. The path is: all others/ communications/ yogabrasil Erich, in response to the mail, now I'm able, I hope, for the conference. It is not fast, but at least I get to enter. Could you begin the sequences ? I have many, many questions, as always. I will ask a thing per time otherwise you will end up getting tired of me. Excuse me for asking so much things but it is impossible not to take advantage of this incredible chance of could learn directly with you. I am going well with the pregnant student, the good sense it is the best guide even so I can be softening too much. Later, I would like to speak on this but, now, if possible I would like a fast indication of safe postures to work with her. She is very healthy, the proportional weight, is 38 years old, first son, is in the fifth month of pregnancy and he makes Yoga for the first time. I am enchanted with the reality of the yoga that you teach. You taught me a very important thing: to do yoga from within. Without philosophies, in fact. You describe the alignments and internal lengthenings very well. The details are impressive, I never read a book like this. The notion of the lengthening of the vertebras pulling down and upward is perfect. Now I really started to feel the moving away of the vertebras. And I also learned how to drive the sacred bone (and coccyx) for the alignment. A hug, Paz, Love... Eloisa
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
5/4/99 6:27:51 PM)
Sequencing. This is a big subject—or at least I tend to think of it as such!—and I notice myself stalling, hesitating, waiting for the inner feeling to say "Go." Let’s get into it slowly. This will probably come in installments. Here it goes... This is how I structure most of my classes. I do not structure my personal practice like this. I’m totally free-form when I practice. I just do whatever and exactly what I feel like doing when I feel like doing it... ! ... and I just keep riding the flow... It’s sorta like surfing. But we can get into that another time. I always start my classes with seated meditation, somewhere between 5-10 minutes in length. On Wednesday nights I teach a meditation and asana class wherein we sit for longer periods of time. But mostly I’ve found that a short-ish 5-10 minute sit feels right for just about everyone. It’s an awfully long time for someone not used to sitting that long, but it’s do-able, it’s not too long; and the experienced people are able to get quite deep within that short amount of time, which in itself is a good learning. I usually talk for the first 2-3 minutes, describing how to sit in a grounded fashion, to gently elongate your core, your invisible spine, and to then sit quietly in gentle full bloom. And then I shut up and go into the space myself. This "shutting up and going into the space myself" is, I feel, an extremely important element in teaching. It’s where the inspiration comes from! And not only that, it’s from that centered being-in-the-now state that you radiate the meaning of yoga.... that is... that’s how you teach! You teach it by being it. During Savasana, Relaxation Pose, at the end of class, for example, I know a lot of teachers who get up and leave the room... and then come back when class is over. But hanging out in the space with everyone during that time is one of the high points of class. It’s not that you "hold" the energy, but you help keep everyone’s conscious attention in the Now by being there yourself. So, I begin classes with seated meditation, then proceed with an Opening of one sort or another — I’ll get into this later — and onward with the rest of the class. I end with Savasana and (if there’s time) have everyone sit up again for another 2-3 minutes of silent sitting. I often omit this final sitting because of time constraints and because I teach in a busy studio where there is always another class waiting to get in, so I’m trying to end on time. But finishing with seated meditation is preferable to finishing in Savasana because it is more grounding. Then everyone walks out of there blissful and high, and grounded. And the difference between the first meditation at the beginning of class and the final one is often quite dramatic, demonstrating the power of yoga to transform one’s experience. Paz, Amor, Shanti Erich
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Class sequencing (YogaSuz,
5/5/99 11:00:40 AM)
Erich, Thanks for sharing this information. This is similar to how I am structuring my classes and I like the meditation a lot, for my own piece of mind as I am usually distracted from getting the room into shape beforehand. Since a student asked me, "When are we going to do Aums?" I started ending the classes with three Aums. It is turning into a nice way to tie things up. That last few moments of class always seems awkward to me. I haven't tried doing a second meditation, though. I think that would be a good experience, too. Suzanne
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
5/5/99 11:30:40 AM)
I'm assuming you meant "peace" of mind...? Relative to the beginning and end of class, one thing I forgot to say is that I use little ting-sha cymbals, I think that's what they are called, something like that... little cymbals that a friend gave me from Nepal. I ding them at the "official" start of class and then I ding them again at the end after the final meditation. This helped me get over the awkwardness I was feeling during the last few moments of class and clearly/gently/(non-verbally) delineated the start and finish of class. It's worked well and everyone understands, and there's an element of ritual about it, though minimal, that has a nice feeling-tone to it. Having a well-defined beginning and well-defined end is a good thing. My early years of teaching were quite lacking in this respect. I remember teaching a workshop once and at the end it just sort of dissipated... and in my mind we were done...but we were just still hanging out, which was my style.. until one of the participants asked if were done. What I didn't realize is that people have lives, they have kids, they have places to go, and they have allotted themselves enough time to be in yoga class, but then they've gotta go. I learned that it helps keep the energy tight if you begin and finish on time. That way everyone can pace themselves accordingly, knowing that we'll be done at the stipulated time.
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Help (sue5, 5/5/99
11:41:50 AM)
Hello everyone... I have an 'awkward' situation. I have recently added a brief meditation after savasana (5-8 min. at the most); simple, just enjoying each inhale and exhale. As people are preparing to sit, one student gets up, rolls up her mat, puts on her shoes (not quietly either) and leaves. I asked her if she had to leave because of other obligations...all she said was "I hate meditation!" and walked off before I could respond. When I see her again next week (she hasn't missed a class in over a year!) I'm planning on asking her to stay because when she gets up she's actually disturbing everyone else. Anyone had any similar situation? Or does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle this? Thank you! Sue P.S. Erich, thanks for your recent posts...they're very helpful! :)
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Suggestion (YogaSuz,
5/5/99 1:53:56 PM)
Sue, I suggest you pull the wayward student aside before class and ask her if she wishes to leave before the meditation. Then, before doing the meditation you can make an announcement that if you would like to leave before the meditation, now's the time to leave. Even though you will be disrupting the class still, at least it won't be while they are settling into the meditation and you can find a way to focus them into the meditation and away from the distraction. We have a student in my Iyengar class who has to come in 15 minutes late due to her schedule and we all understand it and are used to her late arrival. So once people get used to knowing someone is leaving or arriving at an unusual time, it won't be so disruptive. Erich, I had been pondering getting a Tibetan singing bowl to use during savasana. I found one in a shop I love and I've secretly coveted one for some time. It makes a sound similar to the cymbals. Maybe this is the little kick I need to go ahead and splurge on the bowl. Piece of mind, peace of mind....makes me laugh. I guess I need a little of both! Suzanne
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Just Tiptoeing Through--With A Songwriter
Named Ian and a Song About Charles M. Russell (littlespacegirl,
5/5/99 3:23:43 PM)
(How can anyone possibly not want to meditate? How can anyone possibly not do it anyway? Why do you think I don't drive a motor vehicle?)
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
5/5/99 5:19:32 PM)
Before someone gave me the cymbals I used to use a Tibetan singing bowl. I love those, too. I'd suggest you do it. Go ahead and splurge! If not now, when? Personally, I would avoid making an announcement that you are about to do a meditation in class and if anyone wants to leave then they should leave. It makes everyone wonder. Just do the meditation. And if someone leaves, let them leave. I've had zillions of people like that. At least they are doing what their inner feeling is prompting them to do... and that's what you want to encourage. They feel awkward enough in that moment. Maybe take them aside and ask them to leave more quietly, and let them know it's okay with you that they leave, at least they like the rest of the class. If she hangs in there long enough with you maybe she'll become willing, in spite of the fact that she now hates meditation, to try out what you're suggesting and stay the extra few minutes to see what it's all about. It's always a little weird when someone leaves before the class is over, but just stay on the beam and deal with what's in front of you to deal with -- teach the meditation, for example -- without letting it disturb your peace. Why people leave usually has nothing to do with you or how well you are teaching the class. More than once people have left class early and my feelings got hurt, me thinking they didn't like the class. And, almost always, they come up to me later and apologize for leaving, telling me of something important they had to attend to. pranams, Erich
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Thank You! (sue5, 5/5/99
6:21:24 PM)
Everyone, Thank you for all the positive suggestions. I hadn't really looked at the situation as this student "doing what she was prompted to do...". That perspective will help me greatly when I speak to her. Love & Peace... Sue
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Very Instructive (Shakti Das,
5/5/99 7:28:36 PM)
It's natural to ownder when some one leaves before the class is over is it anything that I did or didn't do. Just like other possible disruptions to the class (like gunshots in the distance, earthquakes, loud arguments outside, car accidents, "talking in class", the teacher owes the class to be "present" in the class if not create context. I remember that before I started pranayama and meditation my mind used to wander all the time in class and any outside "noise" would grab my attention. I guess I was lucky that some of my early teachers (I remember Dr. Mishra especially in this regard) knew how to focus and bring us into the space which knew no distraction as well as no exclusiveness. evrything was included yet, there was no distractiveness. My classes have a tendency to go "long" and given that others do have tight schedules, I try to remember (especially if I know some students are on a tight schedule) to articulate out loud, "Now we are going to do a short meditation. If anyone needs to leave before the end of the medititaion, it's ok to do it now so. I do this because, regardless of how "focused" we are supposed to be, it seems that someone getting up and leaving in the midst of a meditation (unless they are extremely considerate) will for the most part grab the attention of others. Of course "this grab" is the responsibiliy of the meditator, but i try to minimize such possibilities in order for the emditation to go as deep as possible. In only two cases where a student seemed to be dsitarcting others in the class, I had a talk with them after (and before) the class and explained my concern, eventually clearing up what I "thought" was a "hindrance". Once i tried that "during" a class (perhaps a little inadroitly), and the student (also a friend), I found out later severely resented it. Erich, I really liked your presentation of sequencing asanas. The trick for me is to not get lost in expectation in order not to dampen the intuition and healing powers, but rather to bring it out even further. So it's like how to willfully bring out a sequence that will defeat willful sequencing altogether which as you know only sounds like a contradiction. Thanks also for pointing out that the class sequences and our own practice can be entirely diffrent, something that I have blurred too much in my own experience. Hari Om
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eloisa vargas (eloisa vargas,
5/8/99 5:27:30 PM)
Erich
I read the one that you wrote, about sequences , very
attentively... and I noticed that for you the most
important is not exactly the sequence of the class and
yes the interaction between the teacher and the
student.
This is very important. You always make me to return
my attention to the essence of Yoga and that is
wonderful. This is more important than a list of
asanas for to do.
You spoke that needed to be feeling the things that
we want to teach, therefore , if I am really feeling,
I can show to them, I can transmit as energy and this
energy invades the room and it ends up contaminating
the most inattentive of the students. But, everything
has to begin in me, inside of me to leave and to
expand. It was what you spoke: a good class is when the
teacher makes yoga with its students, when he sits down
in the ground with them and shares the energy and the
feeling.
The point, now, is: What is the real diference among my
personal Yoga and the Yoga that I practice in class
teaching and doing together?
I can be completely deceived, I can be very beginner
in everything and later to notice my mistake but, in
the moment, I practice better, I am more attentive,
sensitive, more conscious and inspired ... in class.
The differences among the practice in class and the
practice alone exist, of course. I can understand and
to notice this. But the quality is the same. They are
expressions different from the same thing. And, my
question is : the practice in class, in certain
circumstances, and sometimes could be an personal
practice? This could have the same value ?
I sometimes think that certain people were born for to
transmit things to the others. They know that its life
will be in function of this. They can do many things in
its life but they end up transmitting things,
teaching peoples . And its personal practice is exactly
this, the relationship with the another. This is the
true teacher. Inside of this conception, the class
flows and becomes a natural process of life. What do
you think on this?
Erich, Thank you for showing me the essential roads
that I forget to thrash per times.
Paz, amor
Eloisa
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A look at "warming up" for yoga
. . . (earthworm,
5/12/99 9:27:14 AM)
Sometimes for no obvious reason my musculo-skeletal body seems to crave a particular kind of deep stretch. I find it is common at this time in my psoas, belly, ribs, groins. If I follow the urge to move into the craving I find that I can enter a deep position, which at other times was unavailable to me. My body is not "warmed up" by the traditional muscle warming through movement, but the transforming "energy" seems to have warmed the tissue. On the other hand I find that when I attempt a deep pose without the "inner prompting" I feel traumatized on many levels for at least a day. So I ask . . . What is Asana? What is it's purpose? Why are the postures this way and not that way? Just another mental layer that I hope to harness. It's just . . . Curious Gena.
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Bob Cox (tympanachus cupido,
5/12/99 11:20:58 AM)
Gena have a look at Iyengar's '88 The Tree of Yoga - chapter "The Flower," where he explicates the "dualistic nature" of asana practice. I hooted [bonobo like ;-) ] at SuZ when she brought it home but upon closer inspection (stepping warily over the authoritarian BS) have found it's worth the time and thought. Can't promise when I'll find the time to scan it for posting but it probably belongs in your yoga library anyway.
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Tree of Yoga (YogaSuz,
5/12/99 1:56:38 PM)
Synergy! A fellow yogi (Kripalu style) lent me Tree of Yoga last week. It is worth a read. It shows a different side of Iyengar and also the same side...if that makes sense. I understand his asana asana asana style better, if I do not fully agree. The section on Kriyas is interesting, too. He considers them an extreme measure, not something that should be used unless you are very sick. Last night I laid down and did an "energy scan" .. tried to notice the energy in my feet, legs, buttocks, back, etc. Then, felt inspired to do a few poses out of that; not necessarily to correct the energy flow, but to change it. I found sphinx to give a nice flow, especially through the buttocks where sometimes I get a kind of static-y, undischarged energy feel.
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
5/23/99 9:16:30 PM)
Thank you everyone for the great posts. I have been wanting to use a Tibetan bell that I have for the start and end of meditation, since I returned from Erich's training in S.B. but have felt shy for some reason. I think it's time to start now! I've been using alot of Erich's ideas about sequencing. The students and I have enjoyed the long opening before sun salutes (if we do salutes) or standing poses. Namaste all, love Alix
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
5/24/99 5:19:05 PM)
I know what you mean about being shy... also with regard to using the Tibetan bells. But, Alix, I'm pretty sure you'll like using them. They are especially wonderful because they are non-verbal. They enter the silence unobtrusively. Have you made up any new openings?
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Openings? (YogaSuz,
5/25/99 7:16:48 AM)
Alix and Erich, Can you please share what you mean about opening the class? Suzanne
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sun salutations (kristinkeller,
6/9/99 11:43:13 AM)
Can someone please help me? I am substitute teaching for my teacher this summer and have had students ask if there are more Sun Salutations. At the present, we have worked through what I have learned as a,b,c, and d. Are there more? Is there any written record or video that talks specifically about the saluations? I enjoy them so much myself and would like to pass them along. Thanks - K
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Yogamama (Yogamama,
6/13/99 3:13:36 PM)
Dear Yogasuz, sorry about the delayed reaction here. I've
not been coming here to often and when I do I don't
have time to go to many topics. The opening , as learned at
Erich's training, is like an opening move in chess. A
series of gentle postures that can be memorized and
done the same way everytime you do it. Different
openings for different class focuses can be done or
stay with the same opening for weeks or months and then
onto a new one. The thing is, they are simple, one that Erich
teaches has one arm circles, for example. He encourages the
student to "climb into the motion" and by the end you are
already getting into the practice even though you
haven't began to use any strength. Some of the poses that
I'm using are lotus or simple crosslegged forward fold,
urhdva hastasana (upward hands) and variations on toes,
tadasana side stretch, uttanasana hanging and or some of
the variations shown in Erich's book, malasana(squating),
catcow and 1/4 1/2 dog shoulder stretches, kneeling twist ala Erich,
vadrasana toe stretch, just to name some possabilities.
Take a few and arrange them in a way that pleases you. I
usually end up in downdog and then the meat (sorry all
you vegetarians out there) of the practice begins.
To answer your question Erich, I have been kind of
mixing it up. For a while I stuck with the one with
standing on toes and side stretches, the onto the one
with arm swings, then I favored uttanasana in six( I think
it is ) stages, Lately I just start and who knows where we
will go?
To address Kristens question, I don't know any other
variations that are official, but linking various
standing postures together from downdog can be very
good. From Shiva Rae I learned Dancing Warrior which I
love. Erich is doing flow from down dog as well. I'd say
the possabilities are endless. Make some up and teach
them to your students! Good to be here and I look forward
to seeing any of you who are attending the teacher
training in co.
Namaste, Alix
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about Dancing Warrior (eloisa vargas,
6/14/99 10:34:30 PM)
Hi Alix Would you can, please, to describe Dancing Warrior sequence? Namaste, Eloisa
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Denice (denice,
6/15/99 4:35:19 PM)
Hi, Sue S I was just scrolling through some older postings and saw yours there. I am also in Portland OR, actually Clackamas. Where do you teach? I am teaching beginner classes through North Clackamas Community Ed. It would be great to hear from another teacher in the area. Maybe I could come to one of your classes if it's not too far from me. I'm not an advanced person as far as asanas go, more in the intermediate range. I didn't start into yoga until I was 36 or so and I'm now 48. I did a one time class for one of the middle schools and had a bunch of 7th & 8th grade girls. It was a very active class and they really enjoyed it. Little kids are a whole different story I think. I'm supposed to do a one time class for a friend's summer camp at her private school - that will be interesting. I'm not sure what grades will be involved - any suggestions? Looking forward to hearing from you. Bye for now - Denice
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Classes (sue6, 6/16/99
11:55:52 AM)
Hey Denise... I'll send you a private email with my class schedule. I teach a lot of corporate classes but I have a few that are open to the public. I'd love to meet you. Namaste, Sue
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Shirshasana and The Crow (eloisa vargas,
6/23/99 11:38:50 PM)
Hi Erich Today I studied Shirshasana as you describe in the page259 of your book.I do Shirshasana many years. I do well, I think. I learned with a Canadian teacher and later, I studied for the method of Sivananda and others. After so many years and so many masters, today I understood Shirshasana reading your book. Never, until today, I had gotten to maintain the stability of the body, in the way that I got. Now, I know as teaching Shirshasana. An only sentence that you spoke, contains the whole meaning of this posture: " The conscience is secret for the balance." You describe the details so well, that I have the sensation of being with you on my side, live, teaching the posture for me. And when I begin to execute, step by step, I can hear your voice guiding my action. I will repeat a thing that I already spoke here: This book is very clear. It is the best work on Yoga that I already read. We can really learn reading your book. You really want to teach what you know about Yoga, you got to share, really, your knowledge and, more than this, your feeling.Thank you, for this reason also. What do you find of KAKASANA, the Crow? Do you consider a good posture? Besides preparing the body for Peacock (don't I get to do Peacock), is the Crow a good posture to work with the students? Could you talk some thing about these postures? Paz, amor Eloisa
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Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann,
6/24/99 12:53:06 AM)
Kakasana (or Bakasana) is a wonderful pose. It's strengthening, it's a good counterpose for backbends, and it's fun. I usually teach it in combination with Bhujapidasana, Eka Hasta Bhujasana, and Astavakrasana, first from the floor, then from Sirsasana II. Glad you're here, and thank you again for your kind sentiments about my book.
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Bakasana (denice,
6/25/99 8:57:13 PM)
i've finally gotten to where i can hold bakasana for a few brief moments. i'm just a tad bottom heavy and it's a little harder for us "full-bodied" women to achieve, but it is possible with perseverence. i keep trying, anyway. Denice
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Bakasana (Kit Spahr,
6/26/99 12:42:09 PM)
Denice: Try doing the pose near a wall and walking your toes up the wall. You still get the arm strengthening bit and you can work the balance part a little more easily. Kit
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Bakasana (denice,
6/26/99 8:46:28 PM)
Thanks Kit. Good idea. i hadn't thought about using a wall for that particular asana. Makes sense though. i'll give it a try. Denice
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Getting Fancy with HTML (sahaj,
6/28/99 3:30:56 AM)
Dear Bob, Can you point the way to using the html to do all that fancy stuff? I would like to put some links and graphic up but haven't made sense on how to use the tags. thanks Kevin
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Bob Cox (tympanachus cupido,
6/28/99 12:03:44 PM)
No problem - a couple HTML tags are in order: A and IMG ( examples at the links) Here's my Tympanachus cupido sig image from my webb.net homepage (http://www.webb.net/sites/cupido/images/pchica.gif) with an image associated link to a page I have on another server about Tc.. Note the tags can be nested: <A~<IMG~ ></a>. Specify the height and width parameters to allow page load without waiting for the image to load. Other useful tags include UL for indenting and LI for bulletizing within a UL text string. The FONT tag is useful for specifying Face, Size and Color. Bolding and Italics are also straight forward.
Super and subscripting are cool; Strike can befunif you blow the form. Remember to clipboard out any long posts (and save to a temp file using Notepad or some such if the post is longer than a couple paragraphs) before attempting to spellcheck or post to avoid loss of work if webb.net, browser or your machine hangs. OK, mate, let's see some stuff.
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kevin wood (sahaj,
6/29/99 6:38:48 PM)
ok here goes... See if this links you to the lord of yoga
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kevin wood (sahaj,
6/29/99 6:43:15 PM)
Didn't work I'll try again..http://www.lakshmi.com/jpg/pbs_003.jpg
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kevin wood (sahaj,
6/29/99 6:46:47 PM)
http://www.lakshmi.com/jpg/pbs_003.jpg
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kevin wood (sahaj,
6/29/99 6:48:39 PM)
Bob I don't seem to be getting the tags to work. I used the guide and the HTML doesn't appear on my message any suggestions?
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kevin wood (sahaj,
6/29/99 7:17:00 PM)
shiva
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kevin wood (sahaj,
6/29/99 7:18:13 PM)
got it
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Bob Cox (tympanachus cupido,
6/30/99 10:07:10 AM)
Yeah. The "A" tags must bracket something.Click on the pic to get the full size version in another window. Here the "A" tags bracket the "IMG" ref to the thumbnail from the Ganesha thumbnail page - if they had bookmarked each thumbnail we could have linked to the exact location of this thumbnail rather than the entire page. Note that the "align=left" parameter (in the "IMG" tag) allows the text to begin just to the top right of the picture. Truncate your text lines to be sure the frame fits into a 15" display window without needing the bottom slider for viewing.
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Bob Cox (tympanachus cupido,
6/30/99 10:16:51 AM)
If you open the post above by right clicking on the number (select "view/open in new window") or clicking on the link <296> in this post and then do a View-Source from the browser menu you will see the HTML (buried in the middle of the source page).
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Bob Cox (tympanachus cupido,
6/30/99 12:28:31 PM)
I think I've posted this tasty bit about Ganesha somewhere around here before but internesia has struck so here 'tis again [probably belongs in the Socs B&G or the Tanta topic but it's related to some of my fav asanas ;-) ] According to Sexual Secrets: The goddess Parvati then says 'O Great Yogi, Master of All Austerities! How wonderful it is to hear such dear explanations of life's mysteries. My heart is filled with joy as I reflect on the subtle meanings of sexuality. While your mood is still outgoing and benevolent, please speak to me of Ganesha, the Elephant Lord, whom I created as my son. Tell me the secret Mantras of Ganesha and the meaning of his mystic form. Tell me why Ganesha is linked to the sexual secrets and why his consort is named Siddhi." Becoming excited, Shiva the naked Yogi draws himself up and says "Ganesha, the elephant-headed Lord, is the remover of all obstacles. He is to be remembered before starting any work or commencing spiritual rites. Many different Mantras are used evoke Ganesha. Most of them begin with the letter 'G. The short seed-syllables 'GAM' and 'GANG' are very effective, as are the longer Ganesha Mantras: ' OM-SRI-GANESHAYA-NAMAH' and OM-GANG-GANAPATAYE-NAMAH.' Ganesha's name is a potent Mantra in itself, and should be called out by those in any kind of difficulty. "Ganesha is the gatekeeper and Lord of the Sex Chakra. His four arms tell of the four petaled sexual center and the earth element, symbolized by a square. Ganesha is the remover of physical, emotional and psychic obstacles; his immense body and graceful movements symbolize the blend of inner strength and sensitivity necessary for advancement along the spiritual path of Tantra. "Elephants are the symbol of kingship and in ancient times they could only be owned by powerful rulers. As the mystic child of my Beloved Parvati, Ganesha is my most precious son. Just as a favored son always has access to his parents, so Ganesha always has access to us. Devotees who wish to know our special secrets should first honor Ganesha, without whose help no magical act bears fruit. "Ganesha's long trunk reminds one of the Lingam and his sensuous mouth is like a Yoni, delicate yet all-consuming. Ganesha's consort is called Siddhi because magical powers (Siddhi) can only be controlled once sexuality has been understood and used as an aid to individual evolution. Ganesha rules the spirits presiding over the five elements and his large stomach allows him to digest the experiences of his followers. Ganesha brings good fortune and success. He is the symbol of discrimination and entry into the realm of occult power. Parvati says "O Shiva, it was when you were in Yogic retreat and I was without you that I took the saffron and sandalwood paste from my own body and from it molded a magical child. I made him in the image of a beautiful boy, perfect in every respect, and through my magical power I gave him life. He faithfully guarded the doorway to my inner sanctum, and on my instructions, allowed entry to no one. "But then all of a sudden you came to visit me, O Great Shiva, and being refused entry by my child, you severed his head from his body with your mighty trident. Such was my sorrow and shame that in your compassionate wisdom you granted a wondrous boon: a royal elephant was beheaded and his head placed on the exposed neck of my child, who then returned to life. Known as Ganesha, this special elephant-headed child of ours was appointed Lord of Obstacles and Ruler over the sex center. "Ganesha still guards the doorway to the inner sanctum. This is a sexual secret that all women share with me. The Yoni is Ganesha's mouth; the clitoris, his trunk, is my secret Lingam. Truly, Ganesha guards the portal to occult power!"
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kevin wood (sahaj, 7/1/99
1:46:05 AM)
Thanks for all the info on the secret code language of the internet and the secrets of the " other " internet which is much more interesting. What do you think all this head severing is about? I wonder why Parvati needed to block her entrance with a beautiful boy in the first place. I am not quite getting the metaphors here.
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Bob Cox (tympanachus cupido,
7/1/99 9:04:24 AM)
I suspect some subtle patriarchal agenda but then that's usually my first suspicion. Could be she just wanted a companion with a "stay close to Mom" job that would prevent him from leaving for a yogic retreat. More likely it is a device for assuring her celibacy while Siva is absent but maybe it was her scheme for being safely naughty in the security of her inner sanctum. Or it could be just a story telling device that facilitates the explication of the elephant head as a yoni model. I doubt the myth is a current feature of Hinduism. The Siddhi element seems like standard Tantra stuff and is the real meat of the piece.
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Headstand (denice,
7/1/99 9:18:34 PM)
Anyone-- Headstands have always been a problem for me. Not having been taught by a teacher to do them, i don't really know where on the head i should be, i.e. closer to the forehead, more on the top; all seem uncomfortable. i know the arms are supposed to take most of the weight. i can do it for short periods of time against a wall, but fear falling and breaking my neck so much i'm afraid to try it freestanding. also, abdominals are not strong enough to get my legs up without just 'throwing' my legs up against the wall. Do i just need more practice? (of course, duh!) What specific things can i do to strengthen key areas? Denice
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headstand -sirsasana (Shakti Das,
7/2/99 1:13:44 AM)
Hi Denice; Well to be on the safe side, try placing the head on the ground so that the weight is focused as far back as possible on the head. Because most people often are afraid of falling backwards, they too often compensate for this fear by placing the weight way too far forward( toward the forehead) which tends to strain the neck through over compression of the cervical vertebra. It's ok to have the wall as a safety until you get used to it, but don't use it as a constant brace except but only when you actually lose your balance when falling backward otherwise other imbalances will form. In other words, place the head between the triangle formed by the forarms with the elbows about forearm length apart (not wider than shoulder width) placing the weight on the top BACK of the head. Walk the knees toward the armpi