Yoga Conference.21.0
earthworm (earthworm, 10/26/98 1:20:04 PM)

There are many who are just getting started on the yoga

path and may be interested in the basics, as they say. 

I find that putting an asana (posture) practice into 

context is helpful for deepening my understanding of 

why I am choosing yoga.



Questions having to do with a classical or contextual 

perspective on the philosophical, historical and 

religious origins of yoga are very appropriate for this

topic.



Erich began his Sunday Morning Rocky Mountain Yoga 

Journal Conference class with an explanation of the 

origins of yoga that shed great light on his teachings.

  



"In the early days when yoga was first being developed,

the primary practice was meditation, or centering. The 

poses (asanas) came later as spontaneous expressions of

that centered state. In combination these became the 

"royal practice'' because the ancients had found that 

through the discipline of yoga and quiet sitting they 

were able to access a new way of knowing and being and 

thereby become more intuitive and effective in all they

were guided to do. This, they discovered, was the most 

direct way of experiencing firsthand the meaning of 

God, Guru, and Self."





For more about The Royal Practice go to 

<http://www.movingintostillness.com/royal.htm>



Since then yoga has grown, like a tree, into many 

branches which reflect different variations of 

practice.  The following brief explanations can be 

found in a Dorling Kindersley, Sivananda Yoga Vedanta 

Center Book called Yoga, Mind and Body.





Yoga is a way of life, an integrated system of 

education for the body, mind, and inner spirit. This 

art of right living was perfected and practiced in 

India thousands of years ago but, since Yoga deals with

univeral truths, its teachings are as valid today as 

they were in ancient times.  Yoga is a practical aid, 

not a religion, and its techniques may be practiced by 

Buddhists, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and 

atheists alike.  Yoga is union with all.

The above is for reference only.  It is not the last 

word nor the best on the subject by any means.  It is 

meant to be  a beginning.  ie., The above lacks a 

description of Tantric Yoga.  



I find Erich's return to the roots the the yoga tree 

true to the heart and intention of yoga.  Perhaps the 

branches are not meant to be perched upon but are there

as a beginning to a journey to the Source of All, the 

intention of all spiritual paths.



Namaste, Gena

1 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.1
Roots (crotalus, 10/26/98 4:01:09 PM)

It all seems to make some sense (particularly the gross

divisions of yoga), even a ways up the tree. But when 

you get to the leaves, this aspiring yogi (snort - 

there's that desire stuff again) finds himself falling 

out of the tree.



I notice Ms. Lasater in the 11-12/98 Yoga Journal says 

that despite being enjoined to "take the yamas as the 

great vow to be practiced all the time" by Chp2/Vs30, 

she says work on 'em one at a time.  I think I'll do 

some asanas instead.



Cool topic Gena.

2 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.2
earthworm (earthworm, 10/27/98 11:46:24 AM)

For an article by Georg Feuerstein called Forty Types 

of Yoga go to 

http://members.aol.com/yogaresrch/forty.htm.  



His book The Yoga Tradition: Its History, Literature, 

Philosophy, and Practice will be available in 

mid-November and I have been told that it is rich for 

beginners and advanced students alike.  I plan to 

purchase my copy in November.



Namas te, Gena

3 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.3
Bob Cox (crotalus, 11/12/98 7:43:35 AM)

Try out Joel Kramer for What Is Yoga

4 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.4
Yoga & Carpal Tunnel (SuZie Coyote, 12/22/98 9:42:23 AM)

One of my students brought in an article today from 

JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association).  

The article documented the results of a randomized 

trial to determine the effectiveness of a yoga-based 

regimen for relieving symptoms of carpal tunnel 

syndrome.  (The study, BTW, was paid for by a grant 

from the the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania).



Participants in the study performed 11 yoga postures 

designed for strengthening, stretching, and balancing 

each joint in the upper body along with relaxation.   

They did two sessions per week (1 to 1 ½ hours) for 

eight weeks – classroom environment, only one 

instructor.  Patients in the control group were offered

a wrist splint to supplement their current treatment.  



The poses (taken from Iyengar) were:



1. Dandasana (Sitting on chair with trunk upright, 

pressing hands into the seat and moving shoulder blades

up and down.  

2. Namaste (Fingers spread as widely as possible, 

moving to hyper-extension of the fingers).

3. Urdhva Hastasana (Arms extended overhead)

4. Parvatasana Arms extended overhead with fingers 

interlocked)

5. Garudasana (Arms interlocked in front of body – arms

only)

6. Bharadvajasana (Chair twists)

7. Tadasana

8. Uttanasana (Half only – to a wall)

9. Virabhadrasana I (Arms only)

10. Urdvha Mukha Svanasana (Palms on seat of a chair)

11. Namaste (Behind Back)

12. Savasana (Relaxation)



Subjects in the yoga groups had significant improvement

over the control groups in grip strength, and pain 

reduction.  The study’s conclusion was that a 

yoga-based regimen was more effective than wrist 

splinting or no treatment in relieving some symptoms 

and signs of carpal tunnel syndrome.  



Only 42 people were studied (with 67 problem wrists), 

and it was a one-time study.  Further system studies 

would have to be done to conclusively prove merit.

5 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.5
Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann, 12/22/98 11:24:36 PM)

Thanks for that, SuZ. That's a nice sequence. How are 

you, by the way? I just got back  from a week on Maui, 

mmmm

6 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.6
earthworm (earthworm, 12/23/98 8:03:13 PM)

Welcome back Erich.  Maui's weather is probably a bit 

warmer than here in Minnesota.  We got up to 15°F 

today, that puts the F in Frosty.  We won't be dreamin'

of a White Christmas because we've got our Winter 

Wonderland.  



For everyone: A wish from me, to you and yours, for a 

very Merry Christmas.



Gena

7 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.7
Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann, 12/24/98 1:47:12 AM)

Maui was great. Worked on my tan, did yoga on the 

beach, and drove to Honolua Bay to watch the surfers. 

Saw a few whales 



Hope you're having fun!

8 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.8
Message from Ganga re Kramer (tympanachus cupido, 1/6/99 12:20:33 PM)

Subject: Kramer

   Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 11:54:20 -0800

   From: Ganga White <ganga@whitelotus.org>

     To: Cox@rmi.net





        The articles are all up on our re designed web 

page.  If you want to announce or make a link to them 

on Erich's page, please feel free.  We are going to 

continue to facelift and improve our site over the next

few weeks. Want to improve the colors, graphics and 

navigation.  Any suggestions are appreciated.



Thank you so much for your help.



PS the spirituality article is still in process and 

make become a small book.  But we hope to have 

something ready for first blush in a couple months.



much love,



g.



===================================================

Ganga White

White Lotus Foundation

2500 San Marcos Pass

Santa Barbara, CA 93105



tel.  805.964.1944

fax  805.964.9617

Web:     http://www.whitelotus.org/

Email     ganga@whitelotus.org

9 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.9
Hasya Yoga (YogaSuz, 1/14/99 12:20:56 PM)

Here's an interesting style of yoga:

10 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.10
Heh (tympanachus cupido, 1/15/99 7:56:58 AM)

11 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.11
Continuation of #315 in ASANA TOPIC (Shakti Das, 7/9/99 3:19:33 PM)

There seems to be some confusion about what constitutes

authentic yoga and whether or not this realm of 

apparent contradiction, paradox, or duality is endemic or 

rather is it the result of simply "wrong thinking" i.e., imposing

a dualistic western framework on what is essentially a 

wholistic eastern yoga system (sort of shooting ourselves

in the foot). Thus 'd like to present a different 

perspective (than the more common dualistic Western 

perspective us Westerner's are bombarded with) based on 

the classic idea of hatha yoga as being a system in 

which to raise the kundalini.  



There exist no paradoxes except what the ordinary 

conditioned "mind" creates. It is this mind that insists upon

paradoxes or contradiction such as insisting upon 

imbalance. This insistence is simply a conditioned/acquired

way of looking at reality (vritti) wherein this mind has 

become inflexible, hardened, and intolerant of entertaining"

new perspectives" because of fixed beliefs. In yoga, there is

no separation between the mind and body -- in other words 

there exists a non-exclusive unity which incorporates 

them both. There is no paradox there. In yoga there is a 

non-exclusive unity between left brain and right brain 

function and this does not have to be an either or 

imbalance or mismatch. There is no war between logic and 

intuition unless the mind insists upon it (out of being 

carried away by kleshas and avidya).



Likewise, health can be a side effect (result) of yoga, which 

is a more wholistic practice than being merely health 

goal oriented, but authentic yoga is much more than 

simply physical health. In one sense the brain, nervous 

system, endocrines, etc are simply body parts and 

reclaiming responsibility to activate their latent 

functionality can be adjunctive to the real goal of 

yoga (agaian which is not health). Perhaps what we are saying

is that many people may be confused about what the 

purpose of yoga is, nicht wahr? If it is simply health than

they are entitled to try that and see if that works for

them, but the "paradox" exists only because people have not 

thought out deeply enough what and why they are doing 

yoga. Now of course they are free not to think at all 

also (just do it and enjoy it) and this way the paradox 

would disappear as well (but in a different way if you 

get my point.  



In the end all animals decompose and the physical form 

goes back to the earth (including humans). The only spiritual

failure is in not living your life fully to its highest

creative potential and to some extent this does depend 

upon a certain am,ount of bodily function, but I do not see

the contradiction where spiritual accomplishment is 

dependent upon physical health or physical health isis 

dependent upon spiritual accomplishment other than in a"

belief system" or conditioned mind that is attached to 

this type of duality.



Thus we can teach asanas to people for health such as 

is done in Pune at the Iyengar Institute where there is

intensive daily yoga physical therapy given for the 

people of Pune free as seva by the Iyengar family, we can

teach yoga for MS (see The Yoga Journal article somewhere

in 1997), my wife taught asana for AIDs patients, a very dear friend 

teaches yoga for CP and other severely challenged 

children, and there are many other "health" reasons and 

beneficial applications of asana taught by many people (

see for instance www.specialyoga.com ) but there I see no contradiction/paradox, conflict, or war 

going on here.



In one sense we are all disabled (suffering from a 

repressed kundalini). Here all hatha yoga (hatha yoga being 

the yoga science that uses asana practice as one of its

major modalities but not exclusively) scriptures agree (

that the purpose is to realize this evolutionary energy). 

The fact is that many people do this better sitting in 

a wheel chair than some one who can walk but drinks 

beer all day and beats her dog. Raising the kundalini 

involves the inclusive unity of the body, mind, emotions, 

energy body, belief system i.e., the synchronization and 

alignment of the annumaya, pranamaya, mano maya and vijnana

maya koshas with the anandamaya kosha (at least according

to  standard yoga philosophy). Simply when they mesh we are

in creative flow, synch, and balance and when they are out 

of synch we are in conflict, tension, imbalance, 

contradiction, duality, friction, and all the other anomalies

of the vrittis including the kleshas and the vyadhis (

disease) are perpetuated and fed. Again its the conditioned

mind that makes things appear complex, while at the same 

time I do not advocate getting rid of it (as in the 

absurd example above) which creates more imbalance in the

long run, but rather placing it in balance and harmony 

with the innate intelligence which often manifests as 

intuition and instinct. When these are in synch (ida nd 

pingala) the kundalini is honored and flows in the 

central column and there is where all dualities are 

dissolved and where are joyous center is established 

without any contradiction. 



Then, it seems to me (if this ancient assumption of hatha 

yoga is accepted, that it simply is up to the individual 

practitioner if he/she wants to use their time alloted 

for practice for strictly health reasons or to activate

the kundalini, or to simply stretch "for whatever mindless 

reason", but I wanted to offer this classical perspective (as

it is the one that I personally like the most as well) 

which to me seems to explain away the "apparent" conflict 

or contradictions?



To me the asana practice is joyful because of this 

integration as it is a coming into synergistic balance 

and synchronization which I can feel in the unity which

is inclusive of the body, the mind, nature, all other beings, 

and their timeless Source while it is my deep prayer 

that I become less distracted from this "reality" through 

expedient practice so that I do not even have to "

practice" any more to exist here.



Here I connect up with not only the disowned parts of  

my body, not by embracing a paradigm which separates body

and mind, but by embracing a disowned part of my feelings

and mind which also has become fragmented. disowned, and 

repressed. Here I embrace a disowned part of "I" which exists

as an integral part within all of nature as  a result 

of this glorious intelligent energy of evolution 

emanating throughout creation from the Source and thus 

I celebrate Source and Integrity whole heartedly and 

spontaneously (without inhibitions) as one process of an 

inclusive wholistic yogic  practice. No religion or 

ideology in that is there?







namaste

12 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.12
Bob Cox (tympanachus cupido, 7/10/99 9:50:46 AM)

I like the notion that through our practice we are 

retrieving a natural integrated state rather than 

aspiring to it.  More a case of shedding impediments 

rather than acquiring facility?

13 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.13
Natural and Self Existing (Shakti Das, 7/10/99 12:39:09 PM)

Yes, so often outsiders view yoga as something contrived, 

unnatural, "forced", and even self abusive, but in Patanjali and "

most" of the ancient hatha and tantric scriptures the 

description of this state is unconditioned, natural, wild, 

and original whose realization is accomplished by 

natural joy and even bliss (thus putting an end to 

suffering which stems from its veiling). 



This natural state as the goal not only seems to 

correspond to Patanjali, hatha yoga, and Tantra but also to

Zen, Taoism, and dzogchen although I am not ignoring that 

there also exists a camp who is adamant in their "view/

interpretation" that this spiritual process must be 

forced and antagonistic (being the opposite of release 

and mutuality). 



In my view then it is nature (shakti) who instructs and

when we listen we are able to integrate. This integration

is naturally empowering as we connect up to our true or

natural Self, true nature, and/or original nature (before the 

veiling (conditioning) where pure subjectivity and pure 

objectivity exist in a synergistic both/and mutual unity 

in an all inclusive "reality" which  embraces them both 

without contradiction.  



Here there is nothing to do at all (once we have created 

the stage merging the left brain with the right), but 

simply let go of the excess baggage that we most often 

carry with us in the form of character armoring, fear, 

desire, memories, false beliefs, negative emotions, etc (all of 

which having Sanskrit names which we will not detail). So 

by simply letting go (vairaga), we create space and thus 

commune (surrender to this more complete identification 

as ishvara pranidhana), which produces Sat Chit Ananda.  It 

is this "letting go" into the natural joyful state which 

often requires effort which the sadhana (yoga practice) is 

designed to effect. It is necessary because of our strong

attachments toward the conditioned patterns self abuse 

and ignorance.



All this is produced by the relationship between 

consciousness and being, crown and root, sky and earth. left 

and right, pingala/ida, etc. When this relationship is in 

synchronization then a third (both/and non-dual core energy

shift occurs (the energy flows in the central column or 

sushumna) and we become a natural extension of the 

evolutionary creative energy with no strain, inhibition, 

conflict, or stress but rather we abide in a natural, 

spontaneous, inside out, self animating intelligent spirit 

filled communion of body, mind, breath, emotions, nature, 

creation, creativity, and Source as one integrated self 

actualizing bundle. 



So it seems that yoga gives us a taste of this process 

or perhaps only a reminder (because we have forgotten it). 

Then we learn through more intelligent conscious and 

loving practice how to effect it more -- what works and 

what does not -- based on this inner way of knowing (prajna) 

thus the self effulgence gradually unfolds as this deep

inter-connection (which is what yoga joins) organically 

increases in its depth and continuity into all aspects 

of our life without fragmentation/corruption.

14 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.14
kevin wood (sahaj, 7/10/99 4:53:56 PM)

Thanks for clarifying the that the question I asked is 

the idea of a contradiction between the

body and spirit (which is ignorance to the reality of

their unity.)  I think you are right, Donny, and I

am sure you would agree that

the dualist mind is human phenomenon.  The western

mind is simply less integrated and more divided

today than ever before.  These systems of yoga

were designed to reintegrate all the aspects of

ourselves possibly at a time when people were

more integrated than today.  Maybe this is why

 Ma has made these teaching available, no longer

a secret only for adepts and serious spiritual

practicioners.  Which is also its demise from the

original purity.  It is up to us to convey the

deeper aspects of yoga to ourselves and students (as our 

limited understanding  allows) to lift the awareness of 

the true reason for yoga practice.

15 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.15
Donny Simon (Shakti Das, 7/10/99 5:59:52 PM)

Many good points Kevin,



Just to clarify when you say: "I am sure you would agree 

that the dualist mind is human phenomenon" I agree in a 

qualified way in so far that it is a human aberration (

not necessarily a natural human necessity, but rather the

human malaise which can be remediated through 

functional yoga).



Yes, the task (which I try to maintain as a continuous 

energetic in daily life)is the unification and 

integration of spirit and nature, consciousness and being, 

crown and root chakra, mind and body, pingala and ida, 

efferent and afferent, sun and moon, and so forth and this 

synchronization or alignment is a gradual awakening 

process which I know that you feel deeply and are 

working toward its completion (odf course IT is already 

complete, but "we all" still have some residual 

de-conditioning of the body/mind to work on)! (:-) and that manifests

simply as the kleshas, vasanas, samskaras, or more simply as 

the vrittis. When it starts to "appear" complex., I know that the

dualistic mind is at work and take it as a signal to 

ground myself with MA and center. This is what yogi Bob 

calls putting your chin on straight, I believe.



Granted the constellations have moved and certain 

teachings and pathways are made available today, that 

were previously blocked (were in evolution) but I still 

think we need a certain amount of bhakti, dedication, love, 

devotion, and/or focus (call it what you like) to see us 

through. Without this "love" (and concommitent willingness to 

shed the dysfunctional attachments) then complete 

realization will be impeded. Since Patanjali was not a 

religionist, I feel that the closest that he came to 

describing this was vairaga and ishvara pranidhana (

although he did have a lot to say about swadhyaya (

relentless self study), abhyasa (continued practice), and tapas (

the cultivation of spiritual passion and heat) which are 

also closely aligned. 



In other words it is not that will and intellect need 

to be abandoned, but rather they must be placed in 

harmony with Divine will and consciousness. Or if we do 

not want to use the word Divine will we can say Source 

and Universal Motive of the Heart; while  in place of 

Divine consciousness we could say the innate 

Intelligent Source of creativity, creation, and evolution. 

Aligned and synchronized with that, we need not make any 

distinction between pingala and ida, sun and moon, right 

and left because they are no longer corrupted (in the 

illusion of being isolated parts existing in some 

imaginary vacuum by an intellectual or artificial 

contrivance imposed upon "Reality-As-It-Is) or perhaps more

simply put upon Our True Nature. 



So, yes, as yoga teachers I think that is extraordinarily 

valuable to acknowledge and share the spiritual goal of

yoga and study its history as best we can. Eventually we 

learn that this history is available in our own 

practice and the previously hidden teachings in the 

books become so revealed (through our own self 

understanding of the process); yet at the same we can see 

that what was called yoga was a work in progress -- 

evolving functional and relevant remedies for the 

cultural (time/space) conditioning of the era and country.



This seemed to me to have peaked just at the beginning 

of the time of the Western invasions and their 

tremendous cultural imposition upon India. Now, 650 years later, it

is time for the "practice" of yoga to evolve even further, 

but not as a reaction to the past, but as its natural 

extension; and I think we are witnessing the "signs" of this 

awakening in the embrace of somatic psychology, 

neo-Reichian therapy, deep ecology, body based 

psychotherapy, green psychology, the plethora of movement 

therapies (such as BMC, Feldenkrais, Alexander, authentic 

movement, dance therapy, Continuum, etc), psycho-immunology, stress

reduction programs, some neo-tantric approaches, etc. That 

they all point to a common paradigm is clear to me, and I

have confidence is becoming increasingly clear to more 

humans which promises to be able to herald in a mass 

awakening where MA is necessarily honored in all phases

of our life including our economics, agriculture, 

governments, education systems, health systems, criminal 

justice systems, education, etc. After all how much more mass

ignorance can the planet afford? 



Granted before, those dedicated to yoga were few and far 

between (mostly living in the forest hermitages or 

mountains), but given modern democracies a mass 

non-hierarchal awakening is necessary and it will come 

naturally as long as it is preceded by consciousness -- as 

long as it is created by people who have become 

awakened, honor, acknowledge, and rest in their heart 

consciousness (something I expect all true yogis are 

joyously working toward. Simply I feel that the success 

of the "human experiment" actually depends on this.    



But then again I was reminded of this from Krishnamurti

today; "Fear comes into being when I desire to be in a 

particular pattern. To live without fear means to live 

without a particular pattern. When I demand a particular 

way of living that in itself is a source of fear."



Namaste!

16 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.16
Suzanne (YogaSuz, 7/12/99 8:53:38 AM)

Donny,



Thanks for your 2 cents. I love yoga and do it because I 

love it. Still, lately, I wonder if it is a good idea to 

reach for the attainment of harder and harder poses, 

which is naturally appealing to my sense of competition

with myself and others, of challenging myself, and of just 

doing the practice to raise up energy. Can't I just raise

up energy by doing certain poses that aren't 

necessarily hard? Why go for scorpion pose? I think that 

you are correct that the idea of doing yoga for health 

purposes is the same conflict as above. 



You are right that there is no conflict actually, but yet

I see lots of contradictions in different styles of 

yoga and their approaches. Perhaps I am just too 

goal-directed?



Suzanne

17 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.17
Bob Cox (tympanachus cupido, 7/12/99 10:50:57 AM)

As I understand it, all the poses are useful. Getting them 

right makes them more useful. I keep going back to 

Erich's good advice [see below] when I ask myself these 

kinds of questions, Suzanne. My practice seems to be 

regulated by IM and my body-mind-spirit needs of the 

moment.  New stuff comes from reading and listening to 

others' reports of how they have found the poses/

practices useful.





Yoga is a way of moving into stillness in order to 

experience the truth of who you are. The practice of yoga

is the practice of meditation - or inner listening - in the

poses and meditations, as well as all day long.  It's a 

matter of listening inwardly for guidance all the time, 

and then daring enough and trusting enough to do as you

are prompted to do...

18 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.18
Reaching for the Present Moment (sue6, 7/12/99 11:07:45 AM)

Bob...



Thanks for posting Erich's comment.  I start a 6 week 

beginning class for seniors today.  Great quote to start 

the session!  



Suzanne...



I used to be really goal oriented, maybe the first 2 years 

of my practice.  Then something started to "shift" mostly my 

thoughts about yoga.  Now, I'm only interested in how I 

feel in the pose.  Am I here, totally aware...or am I thinking 

about the laundry piling up!  :)  I think you CAN draw up the

energy in every pose, whether it's "easy" or "hard".  It's the 

attention we bring to it.  



Namaste!

Sue

19 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.19
earthworm (earthworm, 7/12/99 11:29:02 AM)

And then there is the "doing laundry" asana when done with 

devotion, grace, attention and love.  Is it a chore or is it 

yoga????

20 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.20
Erich Schiffmann (schiffmann, 7/12/99 11:36:36 AM)

I like doing the dishes.

21 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.21
Raising the Energy! (Shakti Das, 7/12/99 2:14:58 PM)

Glad to see all the activity here this past week after 

six months of stagnation!



I have found that before I started doing yoga practices

such as asana and meditation, my life was very different. 

Indeed even today, I find especially when living in the 

city versus in the country intentional practice is even

more valuable. If I delude myself that I am too no longer

need them and try to cut some of them out, what happens 

is that I am not any where as energized and centered. 

Likewise when my practice is ramped up, my life is 

happier and more creative. Now by ramped up, I do not mean 

left brain dominant, but neither do I mean right brain 

dominant either. It is exactly as you say. The energy is 

simply increased and raised and I feel more in touch, 

light, buoyant, animated, and alive! I like that feeling! 



I'll grant that some people feel that they do not need 

to do asanas, meditation, pranayama, yoga, etc to feel good. As a

matter of fact such has always been the more common 

situation, so without being "judgemental"  proposing that 

more people "Should" or "Should not" get involved with yoga 

practice, I will allow for the fact that this is simply 

my own predilection or karma i.e.,  that I have always liked 

hatha yoga and feel a strong connection to it, while 

acknowledging that it isn't for everyone. 



In my experience some degree of effort has to be made 

and Grace can thus be increased (taking a step toward the

mountain, the mountain takes a step toward us] and thus the

confused perspective of Grace being in opposition to 

will seems to be another useless contradiction. Thus in 

India there is a strong distinction made by the general

populace between merely devotional practice [bhakti] and 

yoga practice [not that yoga is only will power but that 

it also contains this element]. This also does not mean 

that yoga is devoid of bhakti either. 



So, Sue6 I agree,  Hatha yoga is simply that [raising our 

energy], and all the hatha yoga scriptures say exactly that(

even Mr. Iyengar says it too]  i.e., that the purpose of the 

practice is to raise [draw up] the kundalini [energy]. Now once 

you taste what that means, then you are in your own 

senso-meter/prana-meter and your own inner guidance has 

been activated. This being an evolutionary energy it is 

always evolving in the physical form, yet it comes from 

the unconditioned Source. 



Here though we are not saying that it is the prana to 

be drawn up at the expense of the apana [downward moving 

energy] nor are we saying that this is not anything other

than synergistic balance where the synchronization of 

the two produce flow or shift into the central channel 

or core [thus distinguishing it as a raising of the 

kundalini energy].



That is why kundalini raising is non-dual i.e., it is neither

only earth nor only sky, muladhara or crown, ida or pingala, 

but it exists only in the central non-dual pathway that

links the two [the sushumna]. 



Suzanne, indeed you are right, there are contradictions in 

the various Western schools which do appear to be goal 

oriented, but that is only because they are where they 

are at and your eyes have now evolved to a "perspective" 

that can see their own contradictions and the dramas 

that they are unconsciously working through. 



Suzanne, in a post last week you asked me to list  the 

yoga tradition source books that deal with the chakras 

and kundalini. I will do so now with two qualifications. 

One that these are merely source books that are to be 

used in conjunction with your own inner wisdom [in order 

to bring it out] rather than as "external" authoritative 

texts. 



The second qualification is about terminology and the 

use of language to communicate rather than to confuse 

or disempower. Hence I think it is valuable to point out 

that the word, chakra, is a Sanskrit term (not Western], thus any

books or theories about chakras must be in accordance 

with this tradition. Now if we talk about other energy 

vortexes in the body that is not in accordance with 

this tradition, then by definition they can not be called

chakras, without corruption setting in.



It does not mean that western energy systems are 

invalid, nor does it mean that some of them can not be 

co-related to what is defined by the Sanskrit word 

chakra in the hatha yoga traditions, but simply that this

specific word has meaning in a specific ancient and 

well defined tradition which is useful as a word for 

communications purposes only when it is kept in context, 

but when a words meaning becomes arbitrarily changed 

then words can start to create confusion instead. In 

other words, I am not saying that Western authors are 

wrong or right, but for clarity's sake [which I am trying 

to adhere to] I have always suggested  that if they wish 

to invent their own system that they invent appropriate

words to describe them and I will not repeat or feed 

these type of mis-appropriations. I tried to be 

consistent in the more recent mis-use of the classical 

word ashtanga yoga as it is applied now in the West to 

P. Jois' system of vinyasa yoga for the same reasons, 

because it is already too easy to be confused about 

what yoga is about and such confusion in basic terms 

only add to the apparent contradictions which after all

is part of the problem rather than the solution.



I have already mentioned the "Hatha Yoga Pradipika" and a 

web site that contains one translation on the Yoga 

Anatomy topic. This reference book on hatha yoga, kundalini, 

asana, mudra, bandha, pranayama, meditation, etc is usually dated

anywhere between the 14th and 16th century. It is also translated

by the Bihar School of Yoga, the Intl. Sivananda Yoga 

Center, and a few other sources. The Bihar School's 

commentary is the most extensive. It is highly 

recommended.



Likewise the "Gheranda Samhita" contains similar material 

and is usually dated to be somewhat later than the 

Hatha Yoga Pradipika perhaps in the latter 17th century. 

Again there are many translations available.



The "Siva Samhita" is also a very authoritative text on 

Hatha Yoga which contains most of the same material and

can be dated around the same period as the Hatha Yoga 

Pradipka. There is only one English translation available

that I know. 



I also have the Yoga Upanishads, the Hatharatnavalai, the 

Satkarmahsangraha, Brhadyogiyajnavalkyasmriti, the Goraksa 

Sataka, Goraksa Paddhati [a translation is found in Georg 

Feurstein's the "Yoga Tradition"], and some others all of which

contain very good hatha yoga instruction on the chakras, 

kundalini, pranayama, mudra, theory, etc., but they are mostly more

difficult to obtain. 



Regarding the Yoga Upanishads, Jeanne Varenne, has a book 

with many translations from the Yoga Upanishads called "

Yoga and the Hindu Tradition" and can be gotten from 

Amazon.com . In addition Swami Sivananda's book on 

Kundalini Yoga contains a translation of the Yoga 

Kundalini Upanishad in the appendix [which is one of the 

Yoga Upanishads]. The translation of the complete Yoga 

Upanishads that I have is from the Theosophical 

Publishing House in Adyar India and has long been out 

of print (not a great translation either]. 



As mentioned before, http://www.hubcom.com/tantric/  has the translations of a few great hatha texts attributed to 

Matsyendranath and Goraknath as well as much on the 

tantras. Also Amazon.com may be able to get "Gorakhnath and 

the Kanphata Yogis", by George W. Briggs, but it is currently 

out of print. 



Most of these books of course are neither popular nor 

are they carried by mainstream book suppliers [not 

available on amazon.com] but they are none-the-less 

authentic yoga study material (for those interested in 

the evolution and history of the authentic practices. 

Some of these translations are availble at Motilal 

Benarsidas Publishers in New Delhi, http://www.mlbd.com/ which is a major distributor as well.



The above books agree pretty much to the chakras, 

kundalini theory, pranayama, asana, mudra, bandha, laya, meditation, 

and kriya practices, but there of course are some 

differences and quite a lack of detailed instruction in

many areas. 



To counterpose this hatha yoga tradition, the tantric 

traditions will differ some what as to the chakras but 

really not very much. Lastly, the Indian Buddhist tradition[

preserved mostly in Tibet] is also extremely similar but 

will use different names for ida and pingala, kundalini, 

and the chakras. I believe that they are basically 

variants of the same basic teachings. Many of the Source 

scriptures for these texts are also available in 

English, but I won't spend any more time with this now 

unless the need becomes evident. Of course in addition to

the source texts, there exist many commentaries and 

supportive texts that explain in more detail these 

hatha yoga practices. 



Again I agree that the purpose is not to conform to a 

pose, but rather to discover the inner [innate] wisdom as the

guide. Here asking for  guidance is not an external 

asking [like asking a separate teacher, channeling an 

external spirit guide, deva, or "entity" in the sense of 

separation] but rather to establish and bring forth this 

intimate relationship with Source from the inside out. 

Thus the books, the teachings, and the teachers should 

support [rather than subvert this process of self 

realization] so if the books or "words" help clarify the 

process, then use them and if they confuse or disempower, 

then you are free to discard them. 



I have found that they have been very helpful to get 

perspective on both this life and in context of human 

history and evolution in general, but I do keep in 

perspective that they were written in a different era 

and culture. In other words, all these texts talk about 

balancing the left and right [upaya] and moving into the 

heart (sushumna] and here doing and listening, will and 

receptivity, consciousness and being, pingala and ida, is not

to be understood as autonomous or exclusive polarities [

unless we stay locked in duality] rather the purpose of 

the practice is to unite the two in sushumna. In these 

texts this same theme is repeated over and over again 

symbolically in many ways. Translated to our culture, which

is over dominant left brain (pingala], in general we need to 

honor the right brain (ida] more in order to establish 

synergistic balance and synchronization (yoga], but that does

not at all mean to throw away the left brain or that we

do not need it. It has nothing to do with extremes or an 

either/or exclusivity or contradiction. Simply they must be

made to come together (in the central channel] and this is 

what functional Hatha Yoga is designed to do. Especially 

in today's imbalanced society, such authentic practice is

very healing (balancing] and empowering. 



"The letter "MA" is for Manas (mind] and the letter "TRA" is for 

prana. By connecting Manas and Prana the yoga is called 

mantra yoga.



By pulling apana vritti upward and prana downward, the 

sum of these two pranas as kundalini enter the middle (

sushumna] nadi and goes into the sky lotus which effects 

the crown completion of Rajayoga.



The letter "HA" stands for Surya (Sun] and the letter THA 

denotes Chandra (Moon]. When Chandra and Surya are brought 

together in a balanced condition, that is called hatha 

yoga."



from the Hatharatnavali, I. 19-21 dated from the 16th or 17th century.

22 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.22
Tasty Post (tympanachus cupido, 7/12/99 3:13:20 PM)

Much to mull and digest here.  Thanks for making all this

handy as well as presenting a recommended approach to 

the material



In casually checking out some of your comments against 

Feuerstein [The Shambhala Encyclopedia of Yoga], I find 

concurrence where the facts are known. Feuerstein points 

out that much research work on the history of Yoga 

remains to be done.



Apparently there is no th sound in spoken Sanskrit, so 

hatha is pronounced hat-ha?

23 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.23
ha (Shakti Das, 7/12/99 3:44:57 PM)

Yes, as far as I know, you are correct, kinda aspirated ha as

in hot hahh, but it's neither my native language nor am I

well trained Sanskrit.



Yes, it's been valuable to study the hey day of yoga and 

tantra (medieval India] as an adjunct in an attempt o see 

what may applicable in my own practice.



And then also to see what a value modern technology has

to offer today. Before Patanjali, there was really very 

little written down on yoga. Can you imagine the work 

involved on writing it down on palm leaves? Then 

distributing it? 



Then later on with hatha yoga, what an impossible chore 

to make a detailed list on how to do all the asanas 

without drawings. 



I give a lot of credit to Erich for all the time that 

he spent (and I know it was considerable] to try to put all

that together in his book with drawings and so forth. 

Can't even imagine what could be close to that on palm 

leaves? 



So much has been lost and the rest has been left to an 

oral tradition. Put that together with the downright 

persecution of tantra, atheistic yoga, and Buddhism by the 

Moghuls and we cab appreciate even more that these 

texts are simply outlines of the practice, but if we do 

our own practice they illuminate it and likewise our 

practice illuminates the teachings. Two way interactive 

mutuality/synchronicity -- A both/and proposition again!



Love



Love

24 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.24
kevin wood (sahaj, 7/13/99 1:26:18 AM)

check

25 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.25
kevin wood (sahaj, 7/13/99 1:27:22 AM)

I asked the adyar bookshop in sydney to order a 

copy of " the original yoga " by shyam ghosh published by 

munshiram manharlal pvt. ltd, new delhi.  That was three 

years ago.  I just recieved 

the book a few weeks ago!!!! That's India for you,

and boy is that efficiency for you from Adyar!

Anyway it contains a translation of the sivasamhita

[which is probably the one that you have donny],

the hatha yoga pradipika and the yoga sutras.

the traslation isn't the best but it will give you

an idea of the traditional Ha - THa yoga, and the

"raja" yoga of patanjali.  The full meaning of these 

scripture requires some tuition by a teacher

from the lineage [which also has disadvantages because of

their own baises].  But I have found the ancient

texts valuable when they confirm [and this happens

often] my own experience through practice.  Some of the 

mysteries might

forever be lost unless we rediscover them by our own 

experime

26 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.26
(Shakti Das, 7/13/99 9:01:59 AM)

Yes, gosh and if you are going back to India soon, I have a

list of books for you to pick up :-)



Much to be said about the book of the heart and that's 

what is so empowering about authentic yoga -- the balance 

of apanaand prana is found in opportunity of each 

breath!



Maybe we are still recovering from the orientation that

we will find "the answer" in a book? Could be because of 

Judeo-Christian -- the bible as indisputable authority or 

even the work of God or it can be because of external 

authoritarianism such as in the disempowering 

educational system or most probably a combination of 

both -- some autocrat, technocrat, aristocrat, priest, or external 

authority figure knows better than "i"?  Maybe this is where 

the authentic guru plays her role in defeating this 

tendency while placing the "disciple" into the authority of

the heart when we realize that this truly authentic 

teacher is no one separate from the heart.

27 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.27
Moving from the Heart versus Compulsion (Shakti Das, 7/13/99 5:06:11 PM)

Often in many top down religious and ideological 

systems, what is feared the most is spontaneity because 

such people do not trust their feelings, fear them, or "think" 

of it as dangerous, troublesome or even evil. They carry 

with them a higher and lower duality of which animal 

and earthly is base and coarse and heaven is equated 

beyond the human animal or its transcendence embracing 

a subtle, refined, and often undifferentiated conception of"

God" -- ultimate attainment being an escape from form and 

embodiment. I find this in both the Hindu dualistic 

systems (and I include most of Vedanta in this category 

even though they claim to be non-dual] as well as in the 

Judeo-Christian traditions which separate heaven from 

earth; while on the other hand, it is especially in the 

tantric yoga and hatha yoga traditions where I find a 

total embrace of the present -- of the embodied form as the

sacred alchemical vessel for the magic of spirit and 

nature to occur. 



In these genuine tantric non-dual systems, there always 

are some similarities:



1] That the macrocosm is available by samayama on the 

microcosm (the whole available in its parts]  -- a sort of 

holographic embrace.



2] That the earth energy must be joined with the sky energy

and that the flow is from the ground up (not top down] thus

not over valuing the intellect over the heart -- or the 

thinking process over the intuition. 



3] But the most important distinction is that there is a 

distinction made between being in the heart and acting 

spontaneously from that center and compulsive behaviour

on the other. 



Thus this type of tantric yoga is based on helping get 

in touch with this inner knowing -- knowing when we are in 

harmony, balance, and centered. It provides tools which are 

readily available (inside] where we can get balanced 

whenever we find ourselves "off"  as well as awareness 

tools to let us know that we are off center in the 

first place. 



For me, this alienantion from the vital instincts and 

natural intuitive abilities became repressed during teh

process of my adult conditioning until I became a 

tightly controlled machine (by the intellect and will] at 

war with the body and nature and at times trying to 

deaden it (as a means of ego conquest]. Once this 

estrangement set in (as an imagined reality], I could not 

differentiate between compulsive action and heart-felt 

action because everything came through this same 

external censor/filter of the logical mind (ego]. Logical 

belief systems didn't help (and sometimes actually made 

things worse. I knew that I was going "out" but didn't have a

clue until I started hatha yoga practices which showed 

me "life" and the awakening process on one hand and 

neuroses, disease, illusory, representational/symbolic "life" on 

the other. It showed this to me not through the intellect, 

not top down, not external in, but inside out and from the 

root up. 



"Here" I was able to finally see these two very different 

directions operate in my life and then I was able to 

chose in a functional way. Concommitent with that choice 

was the ability to discern between heart-felt 

spontaneity and compulsiveness -- I no longer feared the 

natural but was able to start embracing and trusting it

and at the same time I became seduced by compulsive 

behavior less often. 



So shortly after beginning hatha yoga practice (although 

I had studied the philosophy for many years before with

the intellect] I started finding the power to wean myself

from smoking, drinking, drugs, junk food, neurotic and self 

destructive activities, abusive relationships, and knee 

jerk reactivity versus heart felt creative response. 



Looking back at this period of growth and discovery (

almost thirty years ago] I realized that it was simply 

the beginning of the self cultivation and honoring of 

an integrated consciousness which included an 

integrated way of being and the asana, meditation, and 

small pranayama practice that I was doing daily as a 

functional tool that provided accessibility to this 

realm and promised an even increased accessibilty in 

the future. Since then that communion and awareness has 

grown and has been made more contiguous with "self".



So in this sense yoga is for me a powerful 

re-conditioning and recovery tool -- a way of union/reunion 

with "self", with heart, with integrity, with wholeness, and with 

authenticity, with life itself and with its continuation. 

It is not some authoritative top down set of rules, 

religion, or intellectual ego oriented logic which I 

identify with, conform to, or follow; yet at the same time it

enables me to use the intellect in a more viable way 

without contradiction maybe because now I don't feel 

victimized, oppressed, or threatened by it as I once did?



So although yoga must be made into a personalized and 

intimate experience for it to be of any value, it is at 

the same time an ancient tool to come back into vital 

relationship with the organic, authentic, or true Self 

which is timeless and absolute. For me it is a way to 

rest in true non-duality without estranging myself from

the body or planet; yet at the same time without creating

any limitation, attachment, or fear by such an embrace 

being able to embrace the Source and Whole in each of 

its parts as a natural extension of this  continuum 

which (for me] is yoga.



Here I am so grateful to have been exposed to this this

process.

28 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.28
earthworm (earthworm, 7/16/99 10:05:33 AM)

One of the topics that came up during the Gary Kraftsow

weekend is related to the question of the topic, "What is 

yoga."



Gary is absolute in his attitude that yoga is not a 

religion.  He says that where religions like Chrisianity, 

Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam are the paths to God.  Yoga is

akin to the road/highway built to facilitate one's 

journey.  Thus one could easily be a Christian and 

practice yoga.  



It is also the case that each religion has it's own "

infrastructure" meant to help one on their path. 



I think Gary's is a valuable perspective.  Georg 

Feuerstein seems to have a similar view, calling yoga a "

psycho-spiritual technology".



I find it challenging to separate the "practices" that aid 

one on their path to God from the "intention" of being on a

path to God.  It seems to me that the technology known as

yoga has been developed with a particular cosmological/

theological view in mind?  People who similarly see 

cosmology would be more drawn to yoga than people who 

do not share that view.



I hear teachers talk about how asana is a very good 

starting point for those unfamiliar with yoga.  On the 

one hand, I understand the desire to share with others, 

that we have found to be helpful to ourselves.  On the 

other hand, I detect a subtle sort of attempt on the part

of the various yoga communities to get people to join 

their "club", which is something I think we have to be 

vigilant about avoiding.  Anything that smacks of "clique"

ishness or "club"ness is going to be vulnerable to lots of 

justified and unjustified criticism.



I like Joseph Campbell's view that in this fast moving 

time, where the old myths don't seem as relevant, each of 

us needs to find a way to 



1.  open ourselves to the dimensions of mystery;  

2.  develop an awareness of cosmology;  

3.  develop an ethical framework of how to be a society;  

4.  live the fullness of "human".  



It seems like yoga as a technology can help us with 

number four.  Yoga as a technology doesn't directly 

address numbers one, two and three.  For some folks, Erich's 

teaching to ask for guidance (a.k.a. "traffic helicopter" metaphor) 

may address number one.  



Any thoughts??



Gena

29 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.29
earthworm (earthworm, 7/16/99 10:32:09 AM)

My preferred view of reality is that it is both dual 

and non-dual.  Those religions/mythologies that come from 

the view of nature as dual are associated more so with 

one type of society.  The mythologies that have a non/dual 

view are associated with very different societies.  



Here is what i see as the clincher.  If you hold a 

non-dual view, then you cannot dismiss an expression of 

that unity in creation as dual parts, night/day, good/bad, male/

female, right/wrong, sky/earth, head/heart.  To dismiss duality as a 

view is to uncreate creation.  Unity without duality has 

no night or day, no male or female.  I think that one can 

acknowledge the value of a unity point of view without 

disparaging the dual point of view and the societies 

that come from it.  Each way brings its own perspective.  

Frankly, I appreciate that there is a culture that has 

brought forth anaesthesia, eyeglasses, antibiotics, 

vaccinations, latex, electricity, modern medicine.  If I am in 

a car accident please do not take me to the aryurvedic 

physician, take me to the emergency room.  It is not that I

dread death, but that I believe that I and everyone else 

deserves the best chance to "do our dharma" whether 

facilitated through yoga, aryurveda, or modern medicine, or 

whatever. 



namas te, gena

30 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.30
Bob Cox (tympanachus cupido, 7/16/99 7:08:41 PM)

I've just returned [10PM last night] from Albuquerque. The New 

Mexico part of this extraordinarily beautiful journey 

was after a rain at that glorious low sun angle part of

the day - the time when the Land Of Enchantment provokes 

a feeling of enlightenment that astounds the senses; 

azure skies, the finest cottony clouds, smells of wet sage, 

pinoñ, juniper & cedar; the feel of warm damp earth; the 

lingering taste of chile and the aural memory of the 

cadence and lilt of the northern NM patois.



I slowed enough to fully indulge all of this while 

considering just what you've addressed here, Gena.



Is yoga "merely" a tool of self discovery and mind-body- 

spirit maintenance? Or is it a spiritual framework, a 

lifestyle, a context for understanding? 



I'm coming around to the point of view that yoga offers

you whatever path you need to express your particular 

emerging form of consciousness, as long as you don't 

impose any expectations [intent is a delicate matter here], 

remain open to the revelations and embrace the 

opportunity for creativity. 



At its simplest is is a flow device - a connection to the

divine spark of creativity for the evolution of the 

self. 



Does it need more than simple awareness in the play of 

pose, breath and reflection? Well, I'd say its best not to 

overcomplicate it - big danger of expectations and missed

opportunity. I hang in the tire in the corner with the 

sign [kindly not consider me to be talking just 2nd chakra 

here], 



"Make yoga like you make love - make love like you make 

yoga." 





 



I also took the opportunity to stop at the Kagyu Mila 

Guru Stupa

which has been constructed by some of the 

Northern NM Tibetan Buddhists in honor of the 

meditation teacherHerman Rednick who taught at El Rito 

on the west side of the Sangre de Christo range. 



The imposition of this structure on the deeply [and 

tragically] Catholic landscape has always amused me - right

there in the shadow of the Blood of Christ range it is. 

The lighting was perfect and I hope to soon share with 

you all pictures of this marvelous bit of irony.



Herman Rednick reminds me of Sheldrake and his take on 

Angels

.  Sheldrake [who I have come to appreciate via a 

recommendation from his good friend Terence McKenna] has 

said:



When I was at Cambridge I was very conscious of the 

great limitations of biological theory. Although I 

enjoyed doing research and teaching biology there, I 

became increasingly aware that the mechanistic theory 

of nature was a very limited way of looking at things. It

didn't correspond to the fullness of what living things

were doing. Just grinding them up and isolating enzymes 

and so on tells you something about organisms, but it 

doesn't tell you how they relate to each other in 

societies, how they behave in the wild, and that kind of 

thing. All of that perpetually eludes this reductionistic

kind of science.



Then, to find out more about tropical botany, I spent a 

year in Malaysia, where I worked at the University of 

Malaysia. This was in 1968. On my way there, I traveled through India

for three months. That had a huge impact on me. I suddenly 

saw this astonishing culture which I found completely 

fascinating, which had riches and depths beyond anything 

I had ever been taught about in England.



I got interested in meditation and when I got back to 

England I did Transcendental Meditation for a while. Then

I got into other forms of Indian meditation. I didn't 

want to go on with the narrow, reductionist science at 

Cambridge, and the scientific community there was so 

committed to this narrow view. So I found a job in India, 

at an international agricultural institute, where I could

do real science, working on Indian crops, that might 

potentially be useful, and at the same time live in India, 

which was where I wanted to be. I spent four or five 

years living and working in Hyderabad, at the 

International Crops Research Institute for the Semiarid

Tropics, where I was the crop physiologist. 



During this time I had the opportunity to find out 

about Sufism, because of the Sufis in Hyderabad, and about 

Hindu philosophy. Gurus came through giving discourses 

and I visited various ashrams. But I actually found 

myself most drawn to ordinary Hinduism: the pujas, the 

people's practice of making offerings to sacred plants 

in the mornings, the greeting of the sun in the morning, 

the pilgrimages to temples and sacred places, the holy 

trees, holy rats, holy cows, and holy snakes, and that kind of 

thing. I just liked the sacralization of nature and the 

earth which I found there. I'd gone there interested in 

the higher reaches of Hindu philosophy and meditation 

and actually found myself drawn to what most 

sophisticated Hindus despised - the folk practices of 

Hinduism. That drew me the most, and that I found most 

attractive because it involved a kind of sacralization 

of the earth and a different attitude toward nature and

matter and life.



This was quite a shock to me at first. But I was 

intrigued by it and it played for me a very important 

role in giving me a broader view of things. Then I 

realized that I couldn't be a Hindu because I wasn't 

Indian, and it would be ridiculous to go back to England 

dressed up in Indian clothes and pretending to be 

Indian. I visited a few gurus and asked their advice on 

my spiritual quest. And one or two of them said something

I never expected them to say: "You come from a Christian 

background, you should find a Christian path. All paths 

lead to God and that's your path because that's your 

ancestral path." This actually came to make a lot of sense 

to me. 



Then later, I met Father Bede Griffiths, who was my main 

teacher in India, and I lived in his ashram for a year 

and a half. He was a Benedictine monk who lived in India 

and followed many aspects of Indian spirituality while 

remaining a Westerner with Western views. He was a bridge

for me between these two cultures and helped me 

reconnect with the mystical traditions of Christianity, 

the core of the Christian tradition which I hadn't 

really heard about as a child. So that, for me, was the way 

that I returned to a Western way of looking at things 

after a total of seven years in India. It took me a long 

way, going through that Indian path, and coming back. 



Then, when I was living in India, I became very friendly 

with Krishnamurti, and later I saw quite a lot of him. I 

found him very refreshing. But there were some problems 

with his approach. He was very good at asking questions, 

but he wasn't very good at suggesting answers, and I 

think that a lot of people got quite lost as a result 

of his teachings. But I had a lot of fun being with him 

and I liked him a lot personally. India played an 

important part in all this, and my time there, which 

combined doing Western-style science with living in 

India, was for me the right solution at the time. It meant 

I could do both. It provided a way of being in both 

worlds. 



Strikes me that Erich was not one of those who got lost. 



I've always known that my spiritual path was not anyone

else's.  Our paths may cross [they seem to here, often] and they 

may run parallel for a while and it is sometimes 

productive to enjoy the other's perspective, but finally 

it is back to your own drummer.

31 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.31
earthworm (earthworm, 7/16/99 9:57:44 PM)

"...the time when the Land Of Enchantment provokes 

a feeling of enlightenment that astounds the senses; 

azure skies, the finest cottony clouds, smells of wet sage, 

pinoñ, juniper & cedar; the feel of warm damp earth; the 

lingering taste of chile and the aural memory of the 

cadence and lilt of the northern NM patois...."



MMMMMMmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!



"...Does it need more than simple awareness in the play of 

pose, breath and reflection? Well, I'd say its best not to 

overcomplicate it - big danger of expectations and missed

opportunity."



I agree.



I have tried to dance to many a drum and am better for 

it and I find that my path somehow belongs in a 

synthesis of East and West, a path I began to explore in 

college.  I very much appreciate both views in the 

interview, Sheldrake and Fox, even though they use "very" 

different language to describe the same phenomenon.  This

exploration of the many ways to talk about the same 

truths has always seemed like a really worthwhile 

adventure to me.  This is why the East/West dialogue, where 

there is mutual respect and admiration for the other, is 

so astonishingly wonderful for me.  That is the long way 

of saying thanks for the angel interview.



I have been around the Christian church enough to know 

that the priests and reverends mostly are afraid of 

other religions like Buddhism, Hinduism.  It's the us vs. 

them, the right vs. wrong mentality.  It's the club approach.  

I tried to find my way in the Christian path [mainstream] 

and found myself labeled as heretical [for suggesting "How 

about saying I/you are God"].  I discovered the Christian 

mystical tradition as well but it just wasn't enough, 

then.  Not being in a position to go to a monastery, I 

returned to my own peculiar practice of solitary yoga 

to keep the home fires burning.



Where I waver the most is in a concern about the 

children.  Fox's views are interesting.  I'm not sure what 

I think.  I guess we are experimenting.



"You come from a Christian 

background, you should find a Christian path. All paths 

lead to God and that's your path because that's your 

ancestral path." This actually came to make a lot of sense 

to me. "



To me too, and I've heard this from other spiritual 

teachers.  It's worth strong consideration, if I can find 

the way through the dogma mines.  It looks like a painful

road and yet perhaps it is the one I will go down, yoga 

tools/framework in hand?  It is thought provoking.



Thanks, Bob.

Gena

32 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.32
earthworm (earthworm, 7/16/99 10:07:33 PM)

(Erased by earthworm at Jul 16 1999 10:07PM)

33 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.33
Bob Cox (tympanachus cupido, 7/17/99 12:25:06 PM)

(Erased by tympanachus cupido at Jul 17 1999 12:36PM)

34 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.34
Bob Cox (tympanachus cupido, 7/17/99 12:36:04 PM)

Couple things grabbed me in the Fox/Sheldrake interview:



Sheldrakes'



"I believe that angels influence humans through their 

creativity, human thoughts and actions. Traditionally, it's 

called "inspiration," which literally means "spirit breathed 

into you." I still think that's a good way of putting it. 



which has a yogic quality about it.



Fox's:



"....what we are really craving is that sense of

holy terror in our consciousness."

 which is very like William Blake [check his paintings of

ethereal beings].



Another guy who used to hang at El Rito (the village of 

El Rito is beyond modest - more like not there) was Jim 

DeKorne who wrote Psychedelic Shamanism. He quotes the 

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad



Now if a man worships another diety, thinking the diety 

is one and he another, he does not know. He is like a beast

for the Devas. For verily, as many beasts nourish a man, thus

does every man nourish the Devas. If only one beast is 

taken away, it is not pleasant; how much more when many are

taken! Therefore it is not pleasant to the Devas that men

should know this.





DeKorne calls these "angels," archons - intelligences existing 

in the imaginal realm in bodies consisting of thought 

and feeling. They seek to maintain themselves like any 

other differentiated being and will say or do anything 

to gain our attention and worship. Rather like we treat 

beasts and plants [which arguably become conscious by 

becoming us - kind of a unilateral path to samadhi].



My sole personal direct experience with this kind of 

encounter was a meeting with Yahweh when he appeared to

me [as a voice and a "vague" presence] in a trance. He told me I 

was made in his image and it was time for me to get in 

line. I told him it was time for him to beat it and he 

did without further discussion.



The tykes that inhabit the world made visible by the 

tryptamines are more impish and perhaps mediate the 

intercourse between "angels" and "demons" in which we sometimes

find ourselves entangled. Or maybe they're just feeding 

on us too.



What does yogi donny think about these abstract 

intelligences that flit about the path to the 

experience of oneness?

35 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.35
(Shakti Das, 7/17/99 12:48:34 PM)

Bob,



What a beautiful journey full of heart and integrity 

that you shared, inspiring links, (nice picture too!]. The links 

inspiring (Good combination that of McKenna and Sheldrake] 

now if we could get McKenna talking with Fox and them 

both talking with Grof, and... that would bridge much! What book 

is your Sheldrake quote from? Fr. Bede Griffiths passed on 

about 7 years ago. Do you know if Shantivanam is still 

alive and under what circumstances?



Who is it that said; "Make yoga like you make love - make 

love like you make yoga"? Seems to this observer, to be 

mature advice! 



Heart and Integrity! Thanks for sharing!

36 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.36
Heh (tympanachus cupido, 7/17/99 1:19:06 PM)

'Twas IM [or perhaps an Archon fart] that inspired that 

line. Drivin' fast [2 or four wheels], makin' love and makin' 

yoga - three meditation modes that demand full attention; 

if you can't give it, you probably should be doing 

something else.



I believe the whole gang of McKenna, Grof, Sheldrake and 

Fox have been together at Esalen. A dear friend of mine 

took me to a spot overlooking the ocean near Esalen 

where he wants his ashes deposited [I've promised to do a

better job than Walter provided Donny in the Big 

Lebowski]. A Pacific Coast rattler sang to us on the 1/2 mile 

return to the car and it was that day that I adopted 

the totem [or it adopted me] after a lifetime of aversion [

they are a true hazard to kids and dogs in the southern

NM landscape].



My sole exposure to the good friar ["is there such a thing," I 

have to ask?] is through Sheldrake.  Have a look sometime at 

Trialogues At The Edge of The West which features 

Terence, Sheldrake and Ralph Abraham.



Quote is out of the linked interview.



There's some kinda magic about the El Rito area [just 

north of Questa]; be sure to stop if you happen by that way. 

DH Lawrence spent some time just south of there when he

was part of Mabel Dodge Luhan's esoteric community.

37 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.37
earthworm (earthworm, 7/17/99 1:52:53 PM)

Here is what I have learned about Devas.  Mind you, I have 

no personal experience of the Devic Kingdom.  All that I 

know comes from reading of the Esoteric Literature and 

talking to others who do experience it.



1. The Devas are the "builders" of the etheric [suble body] world.  

There are plant devas, animal devas and human devas and 

so on.



2.  These Devas are on an evolutionary journey of their own. 

They are known to be impish and tricksters.



3.  Angels are Devas who have been "promoted".  



[This stuff sounds like Sci. Fi..]



4.  Ultimately it will be important for all humans to build

the etheric "bridges" to the devic, animal and plant kingdoms

and develop a cooperative relationship with them.



It's just more candy to suck on.



Cuz until I have some actual experience with the Devic/

Angelic world, I put these teachings in the realm of "

hypothesis".



Hey Bob, howdya' know it was Yahweh?  Good response.  You had

your shit-detector on.



Gena

38 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.38
Deja voo (Shakti Das, 7/17/99 2:45:00 PM)

Bob; Our posts were about 10 minutes apart -- needless to say 

that yours "slipped in" before mine (while I was typing to 

respond to your previous one]. 



As you know, I started studying both Western mysticism, 

magic, alchemy, theosophy extensively in the mid-sixties as

well as Eastern. Although I found the entire study useful

in order to provide background to man's history and 

psychic proclivities, the only Western study that I 

became truly involved in was Western alchemy (similarly 

to Jung].



Basically I found "spiritism" to be based on more shaky 

ground (separateness and most of its problems being 

control, fear, greed, jealousy, protection, security, and other 

issues were more prevalent -- although the healing elements

of "spiritism" made sense]. Basically alchemy appeared very 

yogic -- as it were concerned about the linking -- and I felt 

that I wanted to focus on that process -- not having the 

energy to divert to these other avenues. Only in 1971 did I start

hatha yoga (asanas, pranayama, bandha, and mudra] and shamanistic

studies which added the essential and viable balance 

that I had been seeking.



Now I do not wish to take a position of being critical 

of another path (by stating my insensitivity or ignorance

of its value], because that would probably only invite a 

conflict/defender to arise and I do not want to waste my 

time (or the "others" time with that]. 



To answer your questions, most certainly without being 

arrogantly anthropocentric there are many intelligent 

forces that exist outside the human species and mental 

functions. These intelligent energetics are only 

perceived as a threat by those who hold onto issues of 

control and self limitation. Mankind has not classified, 

analyzed, or come into harmonious relationship with all 

these "other" forces in any one cosmology, theology, religious, 

mythological or psychological system that I know (

although many have tried]. I doubt that this could ever be 

successful in that type of framework (can the bathtub 

hold the ocean?]



The major stumbling block to this  systemization is 

that it is too often self limited i.e., based on the 

anthropocentric mass illusions (maya] and thus usually "does 

not compute". This is another way of saying that from my 

understanding, my own understanding is very limited and 

small as compared to that big main frame of which "I" am 

but a network node (which one day will be unplugged], but if "i" 

understand my position in relationship to the whole 

network then my observation will include the variances 

of my relative position and correct for any such error. 

Hence if I start to enter into the holographic like 

world of morphogentic resonance (and I do not mean to 

suggest that the two are exactly the same, but I believe 

them to point to this "greater both/and whole" or universal/

infinite Mind], I can "know" without the dominance of 

reductionist/analytical mind and interact in harmony 

through the balance and integration of the postulation 

of any independent separate entity (that exists truly 

separate] as an illusion on one hand and the embarce of 

my true nature  on the other hand as defining one 

greater all inclusive indigenous process. In other words 

if we define our "Self" as the entire Universe -- as in 

intimate interconnected contact with it -- microcosm/

macrocosm linked, heaven/earth, crown/muladhara, pingala/ida, and so 

forth (you know the rap by now] this fundamental "assumption 

of yoga" precludes any separate, fragmented, or even 

corrupted spirits or angels, but rather allows for ALL of

them (being all inclusive/wholistic and non-exclusive as it

were]. Some may call this heresy or even ego mania/meglomania, 

but it actually requires absolute humility (from what 

little I can see of it].   



We can of course talk about manmade spirits (sometimes 

created by magicians, witches, shamans, groups, and even 

invoked by priests and yogis as visualization and deity

practices} some of these exist only in the mind of the 

individual while others may indeed (like the force] extend 

into the world of cause and effect. i.e., the relative world 

where karma operates. Indeed belief and intention can 

conjure up these psycho-energetic forces, and they can 

exist outside our own fantasies (although often they are 

not so empowered]. 



Indeed I once learned some Huna healing techniques that

also included empowering certain elementals as aids in 

healing and protection, but in general unless they are 

very intelligently designed they can wind up sapping 

the practitioner's energy more than aiding in one's 

process of self realization and liberation from karma. So

in general except under the guidance of a trusted guru (

which is in itself a path that is not without potential

iatrogenic pitfalls of which we have already spoken 

about at length] or else in high yoga tantra once we are 

aware of our own vital energies (and are thus only then 

capable of taking responsibility] are not advisable paths. 



Certainly black magic is never advised (if one is not to 

divert one's energy and karma from ultimate liberation -- 

and here we go back to the elimination of kleshas]. 

Magicians, witches, and shamans for millennia have 

attempted to either subjugate or deceive devas, spirits, 

angels, the life and natural forces, dragons, etc., into their "

causes" or have otherwise petitioned, sacrificed, attempted 

to enlist them as allies, propitiated them, etc. Again as 

long as one knows what they are doing (karma is 

inscrutable] and the actions are conscious in accordance 

with the highest intention, then no harm will follow. We 

are all in this together right? Here again in order to 

prevent disaster the tantric Buddhists require the 

training of the bodhicitta (enlightened mind] as a 

pre-requisite for advanced tantra yoga.



Again magic or spiritism is not a big part of my path, 

other than to say that I have been practicing shamanism

as a healing path and various tantric yoga practices (in 

the Tibetan Buddhist tradition] that uses some of these 

elements combined with mantra, breath, visualization, chakras, 

endocrine substances, mudras, intent, prayer, offerings, etc as a

spiritual discipline], not that I recommend them to others 

nor do I really feel that they are necessary]. 



Tryptamine invoked and other altered states where we 

are reminded of the non-three dimensional and 

non-anthropocentric REALITY (as Sheldrake nicely 

describes and which the yogis call Turiya] does invoke 

one fact -- that we are not alone. 



I also agree with Sheldrake and McKenna that mankind 

co-evolved interdependently with the rest of the planet

over millions of years (mother] and that these mind 

altering plants were always available as a "medicine" to 

those shamans who listened to this infinite mind -- 

wholistic intelligence, i.e., who were not cut off from this 

interdependent organic evolutionary and natural process, 

thus tryptamine or other plants were part of a living 

spirituality which took mankind out of his linear three

dimensional realm (which is often locked into stasis by a

dominating left brain/logical/intellectual imposition] so 

that he/she could commune with UNIVERSAL REALITY without 

bias or prejudice. The intimate acknowledgement, communion, 

and actual identification with this process  of this 

indigenous and evolutionary process is what I often 

call Ma, but strangely enough I also call it the 

realization of Sunyata -- emptiness. I believe this is where 

effective swadhyaya eventually leads. Here the right use 

of herbs in a shamanic setting as a means toward 

healing, communion, spiritual experience, consciousness 

expansion, and so used intelligently has been considered 

to be of value by many people throughout time. Man's 

artificial disconnection from nature and the natural 

world has been paid for with a great price to every 

body involved and I for one welcome in a new era where 

this partnership of natural and viable mutuality will 

merge as skillful means (upaya] merging wisdom and 

compassion to its highest potential! Time is short (for me 

today -- being caught in linearity and stress], so I hope that 

this and the last part does not create confusion, but 

perhaps entertaining a bit of the mystery (as a healing 

potential] is healthy?  



I often go further than most (:-] by saying that through this 

altered state Universal Truth and Universal Reality is 

always available to us, it is blocked by false and 

limited beliefs] held together by obscurations, karma, fear, 

and the rest of the kleshas]. Thus "normally" I find even the 

mention that there may exist "truth" at all and especially 

an objective "truth" to raise red flags -- whose truth yours or

mine"?  This too often provokes a severe reaction by those 

who believe in only the bias/prejudice of their own 

delusion that is gleaned from their own "understanding" of 

their fragmented, non-interconnected, and 

non-interdependent reality and existence to be the "

structure" that they identify with (and hence often feel 

threatened to any thing that may contradict it].



That is why in Buddhism, they say that there are two 

truths relative and absolute --samsara and nirvana, and in 

Buddhist tantra they say that there exist nirvana in 

samsara and samsara in nirvana (which is usually 

translated as non-dual or tantric truth]. Does this sound 

too religious to people here?  But I have been warned by 

past teachers (and my experience has born it out] that some

of these ideas are quite advanced (as compared to the 

ordinary inclinations and confused "mindsets" and beliefs, 

that many  hold onto dearly] so that to avoid these 

undesired "reactions" tantra yoga must be taught in stages 

so that one realization will make room for the other. But

I not being very hierarchical in propensity often do 

not conform to such structure, but here have been dues to

pay in this regard as well, and thus I pray for 

enlightenment more sincerely. 



Now with all the above tucked away (very neatly] (:-] I will share 

with you some thing about "spirits" that defies my 

understanding (to an extent] or is at least at or beyond 

its next edge.



Lately I have been aware of a "psychic entity" (excuse the 

term]. It was first observed as an "outside disturbance" and I 

was having trouble canceling it out. It disturbed my 

meditation and dreams for over a week, until just last 

night I invited it in, i incorporated it into myself (as 

part of me], and this included laughing at it (because there 

was a considerable element of fear as "you" may imagine]. As I 

laughed the fear dissolved and the more I was able to "

understand" that the "apparition" was in the "bigger non-dual 

wholistic sense" a disowned part of "me".



I will leave this at that, but want to say again Bob, 

thanks for the Integrity and great heart!  I won't dare a

spell check on this one!     



Namaste!

39 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.39
Questa (Shakti Das, 7/17/99 2:55:10 PM)

Ahhhh lived on a river downstream from a high glacier 

lake (or were there a series of high glacier lakes?] in a 

pine/log cabin North of Questa for a few weeks! I go back 

to that place often (in my mind] even now. 



Been wanting to find time to visit again (and keep in 

touch with old friends] whose addresses and phone numbers

have long been lost and whose dusty roads probably have

been forgotten by the dust accumulated on the brain.



I remember sitting all day looking at the river and 

although the snow had not melted I was not cold in 

short sleeves (the sun being so warm] and actually got tan (

was actually uhh returning from ... well that's another story.] 



Sarva Mangalam!

40 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.40
More Pictures Please (if you got "Time" ] (Shakti Das, 7/17/99 2:56:23 PM)

41 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.41
Uh Huh (crotalus, 7/17/99 9:24:44 PM)

>>[This stuff sounds like Sci. Fi..]<



That's what I used to think. The universe is stranger 

than we can imagine.



Devas are complicated - yup. Some we make - some say they 

make us...



So, Gena how do you propose to stick your toe safely into

this world? Or how will you recognize you're there? Rumi 

sez whirling will take you there. Osho sez dynamic 

meditation will do it. 



"Send us reports, Bill. Include the tasty bits."

42 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.42
kevin wood (sahaj, 7/18/99 12:36:04 AM)

THe devas could also be seen as archetypal energy

forces that are inside us as well as outside as

embodied or disembodied entities.  They serve

the purpose of mirroring ourselves to ourselves in 

order to

move beyond into higher states.  They also have

no problem inprisioning us for as long as we are

unwilling to understand the lessons.  THere lesson

once learned is the extasy of transformation into

a higher vibration and a new life.  I have had

some very wild experiences with beings that were

embodied in physical form "channeled " through

the person even without them knowing that it was

happening.  I was watching a program on Hitler the

other day and I realized that this was what he was

doing, becoming a vehicle for some very powerful negative

asuric [demonical] forces.



We aren't tuned to these things in the west but

they do exist.

43 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.43
Well then... (crotalus, 7/18/99 1:33:20 AM)

..you know the Sangres. I have stood atop their highest 

summits. The southernmost fourteener is Culebra {endless 

false summits, just like a snake} and Little Bear-Blanca 

tower over the open basin that terminates the high wide

valley marked at one end by Questa and at the other by 

Fort Garland, where the notorious Kit [not our mum Kit, who 

is getting an Erich fix, but Carson] was once commander. 



The Sangres are my favorite part of the Rockies. The 

Crestone group in particular is a boon. I've summited the

Needle in Winter and nearly died there one night with 

SuZ as recounted some where around here. Only in scuba 

diving does one get closer to [and more alone in] nature. 

Mountains and deep water, viewed from a minus hundred 

feet or so, create that transcendent altered state 

matched only in ineffability by those occasioned by 

other entheogens - breathwork for instance.



Your cosmology seems an inclusive one. Embraces evil I'd 

say, without endorsing it.  Seems a practical foundation 

for exploring consciousness and I'm pleased to hear 

it's working. 



Making any sense of the hyperspatial possibilities is 

daunting. Interacting constructively with them appears a 

possibility, but it may come from hubris. Some ya just 

can't do - some drugs are also like that I hear. I've heard

some testimony from you about datura which is a 

shamanic substance of the highest merit but manageable 

by nearly no one not a shaman or in the final stages of

apprenticeship. I have it on good authority, though I 

cannot personally vet it, that some of the shamanistic 

bent do choose the dark side which is apparently an 

irreversible move of karmic fulfullment.



Gena asks how do I know it was Yahweh? Well, its probably 

prejudice - the reminder that "I was made in his image" 

seemed a clue and he had this "I'm the Boss" voice that 

those old Hebrews liked to invoke.



The "psychic entity" diagnosis sounds right to me. We all 

have vays of manifesting dusty attics that give even 

the karma kola folks pause. Must have posted this link to

my fav story along these lines.  I really admire the 

Shulgins for publishing this account.



More pics for sure - the light was that magic stuff that 

knocks you on your can to wipe the tears from your eyes. 

Never was the illusion grander though I've had the joy 

of its equal a time or two. Peak experiences often seem 

to be visual or visually filed. 



I recall a deep snow backpack into the East side of the

Sangres late in the day that provided such a moment. The 

two of us had dumped our 50# packs to blow after crossing 

South Colony Creek on XC mountaineering skis after the 

first long uphill pull. The sky was that deep Colorado 

cobalt winter blue with a few high cotton balls for 

punctuation. The sun was well behind the ridge as it was 

about 4PM. Suddenly the sky darkened, the clouds turned gold 

and the snow picked up this ethereal yellow cast - only 

the murmur of the brook beneath the snow marked the 

moment.  Lasted about 45 seconds and caused us both to begin 

weeping and squirming about as if we had indeed been 

touched by the hand of god. I suspect even the torpid 

trout awakened for this transcendent moment.



Hope I didn't put any of you off with the Naked Lunch 

movie link - the pics all finally loaded and I notice 

some of them have some punch. The movie is a hoot though 

I guess maybe you have to be into mugwump jism to 

appreciate it. 



Burroughs was a bad man; shot his wife in Mexico and 

managed to get away with it; long time junkie and, to my 

taste, a bad writer. He did say that "when doing business 

with a religious son of a bitch, get it in writing." Seems 

like good advice. 



Leary tells of bringing Bill some shrooms with Ginsburg

when he was in the Zone [Tripoli I think]. Bill had a really 

bad ride, just like he did on yage in South America [as 

reported in the Yage Letters].  This is not a foolproof 

diagnostic but telling I think.



Yeah - I think you have the right perspective, Kevin. They 

can be part of the veil.

44 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.44
Or our higher self (Shakti Das, 7/18/99 3:10:50 AM)

Or our disowned power. In this sense lady kundalini is 

the dragon, serpent, Beowulf, the flying dragon of China, etc., 

while meting our shadow or dark side may just be facing

our own disassociated fears. 



Also agree with Kevin, that many of the pantheon are 

aspects of Self and whose mythology tells 

psycho-history. In the beginning phases of Buddhist 

tantric yoga, the practices are designed to balance out 

negativities and other such imbalances of the kleshas 

through generating and then identifying with the 

corresponding remedial healing energy as a deity. This is

also what many mantras are made out of.  



So there are many possibilities (some negative and some 

positive] and I will define the "positive" as the ones that 

heal, liberate, and awake while the "negative" are the 

practices based on the kleshas, fear, control, greed, and the 

rest of the ego fears/wants. Won't go into details here, but 

I remember a great movie made in Germany about angels 

and their interaction with humankind -- had that American/

Italian detective in it-- can't think of the name, but it

became a cult classic so to speak with a recent remake 

that supposedly flopped. Ahh well...



My experience is that children accept the world of 

angels much more easily than adults 

We have become conditioned that there are two worlds (

duality] -- life and death -- alpha and the omega, but in Reality 

there is only the one continuum which is Unborn and 

Never ending. We chose (or rather have "learned"] to see it as 

the world before life (alpha] and after death (omega] but what 

if we could embrace this continuity NOW. Is this not the 

sacralization of life that Fox and Sheldrake were 

trying to resurrect and is this not the task of dream 

yoga and bardo work as well?



Ahh well--

Namaste!

45 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.45
Synchronistically (tympanachus cupido, 7/18/99 9:38:34 AM)

"Are you a God?" they asked the Buddha. 

"No," he replied.

"Are you an angel, then?"

"No."

"A saint?"

"No."

"Then what are you?"

Replied the Buddha, 

"I am awake."

  --Houston Smith





dimitri has revamped his splash page and has brought 

some good stuff to the fore by the despised Dr. Leary

46 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.46
More Leary (tympanachus cupido, 7/18/99 9:57:28 AM)

Experimental Production of Neurosomatic 

Electricity Between Two Self-Actualized

Hedonists

- doubt you really need the 

MDMA for this effect. The henna hand is 

from the piece.

47 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.47
Detective Columboo Knows (Shakti Das, 7/18/99 10:53:58 AM)

48 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.48
Rainbow Bridge (Shakti Das, 7/18/99 12:02:45 PM)

The angel movie was an attempt at yoga in a sense where

there was an attempt to integrate the two worlds (

embodied and temporal world with the timeless but 

disembodied realm of the angels]. ANyone remember the name 

of the movie (it was directed by Wm Winger]?   



Tryptamine probably bridges the left/right brain delemma 

in a deep way or else short cuts the interference to 

this natural process? It's always been like going home (

visiting homebase "again", transpersonal in turiya, and the 

Great Continuum (whence I came and where I am going but 

HERE I never really left] while the reports of "bad" trips 

are experiences of "alienation". Won't elaborate any here, but 

just to say that the inner alchemy and outer alchemical

substances can be part of a inter-relalted wholistic 

process.



So what about getting dectective Columbo talking with 

Sheldrake, McKenna, Fox, and Grof and add in a Tibetan Lama 

or two, maybe a new age somaticist (Ida Rolf's ghost would 

be good if she is available?}, a green psychologist like 

Ralph Metzner, a deep ecologist like John Seed or Joanna 

Macy, and letsee, who did we leave out here that may 

contribute? 



So as long as we are thsu "Bridging" two worlds (the absolute/

eternal on one hand and the physical/relative on the 

other -- the ain soph and the Shekinah, the formless and the 

form, the eternal now (turiya] with linear time, heaven and 

earth, then I for one will call that "yoga" as well. As a 

matter of fact in tantra yoga their apparent 

separateness is simply the illusion while the Reality 

is this Integrated Continuum!



On the other hand if we uphold the fragmentation, 

corruption, separateness, confusion, illusion, and disparity 

then that I call that the opposite of yoga. Thus in 

authentic yoga all the parts are honored in their rich 

diversity, because it embraces the all -- the grand all 

inclusive complete picture where all is magnified and 

thus exclusiveness is impossible in this Integrity. Again

this is not an either/or proposition, but we do have a 

choice, either to embrace the integrity or wallow in the 

apparent safety of our cocoons. This to me is part of the

yoga process also (but only its beginning stages (or the 

dark night of the soul] while the embarce of creation/

creator is the actual becoming/interconnection, yoking 

together that provides nourishment and out fulfillment 

in Sat Chit Ananda!

49 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.49
Donny Simon (Shakti Das, 7/18/99 2:20:42 PM)

In this respect it may be integrative to mention that 

the basic Mahayana Buddhist "view" mentions six kinds of 

beings -- devas (peaceful but some what slothful angels], asuras (

warring or competitive gods], humans, animals, pretans (hungry 

ghosts], and hell beings. This is usually pictured with Yama (

the lord of Death] holding the wheel of life as the six 

realms.  Not coincidentally, traditionally in order to 

receive the highest yoga tantra teachings, one first has 

to take the bodhisattva vow which among other things 

promises to awake oneself in order to awake/liberate all 

other sentient beings (inhabiting all these realms]. That 

this becomes a natural desire or act of great love 

through the cultivation of bodhiciita (the enlightenment 

mind] is a given in this training. So in this yoga all 

these "beings" are embraced and liberated and at the same 

time seen as part of our own enlightenment process  (in 

the long run].



Here the intent is very causal, but of course, we have to 

develop our own awakening (and wisdom] in order to match 

the intent. This merger of compassion and wisdom in 

effective and expedient action of the bodhisattva is 

called upaya (or skillful means].  Now it is not 

inconsequential that in tantra upaya also has another 

meaning i.e., that of sushumna, the central channel uniting 

compassion and wisdom, apana/prana, left/right, male/female, etc. And 

so in this sense even tantric sexual yoga is integrated

in the practices of pranayama, bandha, mudra, asana, dream yoga, 

angelic realms etc. 



There are so many practices. The most common one given to

the beginers is usually the practice of Chenresi (

Avalokitesvara or Kuan Yin being the same diety who is 

the god/goddess of compassion].  Om liberates the deva world, 

Ma (the asuras],  Ne (the human], Pad (the animals], Me (the pretans], hung (the 

hell beings]. It's more elaborate than that (as elaborate as 

you like it]. Most of these practices have an elaborate 

visualization and psychic energy component that becomes

developed to a highly refined point in the higher 

tantras. Does this integrate with the angel realms and 

the practices of intent, visualization, pranayama, and the 

rest? 



Also one can break it up in many ways saying that there

are the three bodies, the five sheaths, the three realms of

psychic life, 33 heavens (lokas], etc each one inhabited by various

types of sentient beings. There are all sorts of 

elaborate systems, but which one's seem to resonate with 

you and which one's seem to be an effective method 

inwhich to enhance this very life to its highest 

potential? 



For some visualization, mantra, laya, sexual, and tantric 

techniques,  are a needless diversion but for others who 

benefit from concentrating their energies (so that they 

can later dissolve them into the great sand mandala of 

the Universe] they can be a useful practice.

50 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.50
The Movie (Kit Spahr, 7/18/99 2:26:23 PM)

Are you thinking of Wings of Desire by Wim Wenders?

Which I loved very much by the way.



Kit

 ps:  I'll post some stuff about Erich's workshop this 

weekend tomorrow sometime.  I need to absorb a bit and 

besides we just drove home and I'm a little road weary.  

But I thought I'd check in with what my pals were up to. 

There were several times this weekend when I felt you 

all there with me.

51 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.51
(Shakti Das, 7/18/99 2:55:39 PM)

Thanks Kit, yes that was it! Do you know the name of the 

second one (maybe wasn't as good]. Seems as if the wings 

belong to the heart realm or is it between the heart 

and throat? A vestigal organ or a symbol, or any ideas? 



I know i was thinking of you guys at the workshop in 

the heart on more than one occasion. Images of enthusiasm, 

heart felt intent, and love come to "mind". Hope the 

accomodations and food cooperated. Would love to hear 

about it, what you did, what you found especially of value, 

and what your overall feelings/take of the weekend were! 

Welcome home to the heart or did you take it with you 

as usual?   



Thanks

donny

52 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.52
kevin wood (sahaj, 7/18/99 11:35:57 PM)

Those we pretty sad angels weren't they?  All

in black and white.  Probably they were the writer's 

adolecent

reactions to a christian upbringing that said that

the hereafter is more valuable than the life here

on earth. I can tell you where I would rather

be!!! Who wants to live in Black and white even

if you can fly?

I'll follow the tantric model and realize the reality 

of the world as the play of shakti.  The

world is not separate from god[in small letters

because he must also be small as well as BIG] or

angels.

OM PARASHAKTI NAMAHA!

53 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.53
Wings of Desire (Kit Spahr, 7/19/99 12:58:17 PM)

Donny: the second film which apparently Wim Wenders does 

not like to refer to as a sequel is "Faraway, So Close".  I 

like it okay but not as much as the first one.  There is 

also an American remake of "Wings" which was fairly insipid.



Kevin:  I'm not sure the filmmaker was suggesting the 

hereafter was better than the now.  Several of the angels

wanted to be humans again so that they could taste the 

redness of an apple and feel the pains and pleasures of

love.



Kit

54 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.54
(Shakti Das, 7/19/99 2:41:01 PM)

Yes, the embodied form -- that's where the "work" begins and is 

completed! Not very linear is it (:-} and that is for me a large 

part of what the yoga is about. I always wanted to play 

the old standard that goes "Getting to know you, getting to

know all about you" during a yoga class. I don't like to "

contrive" a class much, but a "good" tape sometimes can be a 

nice adjunct.

55 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.55
earthworm (earthworm, 7/19/99 11:10:51 PM)

Bob wrote:  "The universe is stranger 

than we can imagine.



Devas are complicated - yup. Some we make - some say they 

make us...



So, Gena how do you propose to stick your toe safely into

this world? Or how will you recognize you're there? Rumi 

sez whirling will take you there. Osho sez dynamic 

meditation will do it." 



I don't have a plan, 'cept to continue meditating, keep my 

intention on the highest good I know, and listen for 

guidance.  I usually proceed slowly.  I'm pretty new to 

this stuff and I expect that the more I trust the 

process of unfoldment, the more it will unfold.  I tend to 

think that most forces are working for spiritual 

evolution, not against it.  Essential core of goodness and 

all.  



I know that my current work is in reorganizing and 

stabilizing first chakra formation.  I've been reading 

Anodea Judith's "Eastern Body, Western Mind".  She confirms my 

own self diagnosis and helped me understand it more 

deeply.  Just being in the body is work for me cuz my 

ground of being is a bit shaky, (rotten 60's birth, terrible 

bonding, fearful mother, basically a rocky start).  



The Devas adventure seems like something for later, but I

sometimes ask for guidance as to how to proceed.  As 

Donny points out so aptly,  we are ready for what we are 

ready and anything beyond us is beyond.  I say, "deal with 

what is in front of you" and that is often enough work 

for most of us.



Getting sleepy, Gena

56 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.56
Bob Cox (tympanachus cupido, 7/20/99 12:26:10 PM)

>>...rotten 60's birth...<



Gena, thanks for getting me off my duff to finish 

transcribing for the Web Grof's Basic Perinatal 

Matrices

from his the Adventure of Self-Discovery: 

Dimensions of Consciousness and New Perspectives in 

Psychotherapy and Inner Exploration

.



Folks often dismiss Grof because of his focus on the 

implications of the birth experience [not just a '60s prob]. He 

says that you really can't put off the reprocessing of 

your birth if you're serious about learning who you are

[and what your dharma might be, I'd add].



The BPMs link is heavy reading. The following piece that 

concludes his book is relevant to what we've all been 

discussing here.





PHILOSOPHICAL AND SPIRITUAL QUEST

    from Stan Grof's The Adventure of Self-Discovery



When self-exploration reaches the level of perinatal 

and transpersonal experiences, it changes automatically 

into a search for answers to basic spiritual and 

philosophical questions of existence. The individual 

connects with important aspects of reality that are 

transphenomenal - that is, inaccessible to perception under

ordinary circumstances. When consciousness changes in a 

certain way, as in spontaneous mystical states or in 

psychedelic and holotropic sessions, some of these hidden

aspects of reality will manifest as immanent divine 

dimension of the phenomenal world; others as 

transcendental realms radically different from the 

universe we live in. Using a modern technical analogy, the 

former situation could be compared to an opportunity to

observe in colors a channel that up to that point was 

available only in black-and-white. The latter situation 

then could be likened to the possibility to tune into 

other channels and programs that were previously 

present but unavailable.



The spiritual dimension and the determination of those 

who pursue it will probably make sense only to those 

people who can relate it to some previous experience of

their own. Without it, it might make as little sense as the

concept of colors does to a person who is color blind. 

When an individual whose only concern in the past has 

been to get rid of emotional and physical distress and 

to achieve success in this world is suddenly confronted

with the realms of perinatal and transpersonal 

phenomena, he or she will discover the critical 

importance of the basic ontological and cosmological 

questions.



Who or what created this universe? How was it created and

how am I related to the Creator or the creative 

principle? Who am I, where did I come from, and where am I 

going? What is the purpose of my life or life in general? 

Are there other levels and realms of existence as real 

as our own universe? Is it possible that the archetypal 

beings and mythological domains have an existence of 

their own and that they interact with our reality in a 

significant way? Do we go through an entire chain of 

existences and are these existences lawfully connected? 

If continuous rebirth is a source of suffering, is there 

knowledge and a chain of actions that lead to 

liberation? Questions of this kind, which have previously 

been seen as pseudophilosophizing reserved for 

primitive cultures, pre-adolescents, and psychiatric 

patients, suddenly appear in an entirely new light.



The process of experiential self-exploration not only 

shows these questions as being extremely real and 

important, but also provides access to critical 

information that can lead to a solution of these 

fundamental riddles of existence. Traditional Western 

scientists like to assume an all-knowing position and 

discard any notion of spirituality as primitive 

superstition, regressive magical thinking, lack of 

education, or clinical psychopathology. Psychiatry and 

psychology governed by the mechanistic worldview are 

incapable of making a distinction between the 

narrow-minded and dogmatic religious beliefs of 

mainstream religions and the profound wisdom of the 

great spiritual philosophies and mystical traditions, 

such as the different systems of yoga, Kashmir Shaivism, 

Tibetan Vajrayana, Zen, Christian mysticism, Kabbalah, Sufism, or

certain forms of Gnosticism. 



Western science is blind to the fact that the above 

traditions are the result of centuries of research into

the human mind that has combined systematic observation, 

experimentation, and construction of theories in a way 

that resembles the scientific method. Many traditional 

scientists confuse the current Newtonian-Cartesian 

model of the universe with a definitive description of 

reality, the accuracy and truth of which has been proven 

beyond any reasonable doubt. In a universe where matter 

is primary and life, consciousness, and intelligence are 

its accidental products, there is no place for 

spirituality of any form as a relevant and meaningful 

aspect of existence.



If the mechanistic paradigm were actually a true and 

complete description of reality, an enlightened 

understanding of the universe based on science would 

involve acceptance of one's own insignificance as one 

of four billion inhabitants of one of the countless 

celestial bodies in a universe that has millions of 

galaxies. It would also require the recognition that 

humans are nothing but highly developed animals and 

biological machines composed of cells, tissues, and organs. 

In this context, our consciousness is a physiological 

product of the brain, and our psyche is governed by 

unconscious forces of a biological and instinctual 

nature.



When deep spiritual convictions are found in 

non-Western cultures with inadequate educational 

systems this is usually attributed to ignorance, 

childlike gullibility, and superstition. In our own culture, 

such an interpretation obviously will not do, 

particularly if it occurs in well-educated persons with

superior intelligence. Here mainstream psychiatry resorts

to the findings of psychoanalysis suggesting that the 

roots of religious beliefs can be found in unresolved 

conflicts from infancy and early childhood. It interprets

the concept of deities as infantile images of parental 

figures, the religious attitudes of the believers as 

signs of emotional immaturity and childlike dependency, 

and ritual activities as results of a struggle against 

early psychosexual impulses, comparable to the mechanisms

found in obsessive-compulsive neuroses.



Direct spiritual experiences, such as feelings of cosmic 

unity, death-rebirth sequences, encounters with archetypal 

entities, visions of light of supernatural beauty, or past 

incarnation memories are then seen as gross distortions

of objective reality, indicative of a serious mental 

disease. Anthropologists have discussed shamanism usually

in the context of schizophrenia, hysteria, or epilepsy, and 

psychopathological labels have been put on all the 

great prophets and sages. Even meditation has been 

discussed in a psychopathological context. The following 

passage from an article by the famous psychoanalyst 

Franz Alexander equating Buddhist meditation with 

artificial catatonia can be used here as an example: 

"From our present psychoanalytic knowledge it is clear 

that Buddhist self-absorption is a libidinal, 

narcissistic turning of the urge for knowing inward, a 

sort of artificial schizophrenia with complete 

withdrawal of libidinal interest from the outside world" (

Alexander 1931).

 With a few exceptions, such as the work of Carl Gustav 

Jung, Roberto Assagioli, and Abraham Maslow, there has been 

no recognition of spirituality in Western psychiatry 

and no notion that there might be some difference 

between mysticism and psychosis.

. 

. 

.



There exists ample evidence that the transcendental 

impulse is the most vital and powerful force in human 

beings. Systematic denial and repression of spirituality 

that is so characteristic for modern Western societies 

can be a critical factor contributing to the alienation, 

existential anxiety, individual and social 

psychopathology, criminality, violence, and self-destructive 

tendencies of contemporary humanity. For this reason, the 

recent increase of interest in various forms of 

self-exploration, which can mediate direct spiritual 

experiences, is a very encouraging trend and a 

development of great potential significance.



The importance of the spiritual quest can be explained 

in terms of the model discussed earlier in this book [p. 238]. I have

suggested that to describe human beings in a way that 

conforms with the observations from modern 

consciousness research, one has to use a paradoxical 

complementary model that bears a certain resemblance to

the wave-particle paradox of subatomic physics. The two 

modes of consciousness corresponding to these two 

complementary aspects of human nature are the 

hylotropic, or matter-oriented mode, and the holotropic 

mode, aiming for totality and wholeness.



To live fully up to one's potential, it is essential to 

acknowledge both aspects of one's being, cultivate them, 

and become familiar and comfortable with both of them. In

practice, this means to be in touch with one's inner life

and to complement the daily activities by focused 

self-exploration of one's unconscious and 

superconscious. This can be achieved through meditation, 

techniques of humanistic and transpersonal 

psychotherapy, Participation in shamanic rituals and 

trance events, a stay in a sensory isolation tank, 

supervised psychedelic work, or some other means.



In this way, one's life becomes an active dialogue 

between the hylotropic and the holotropic mode. This is 

really just a reformulation of Carl Gust Jung's idea 

that the most vital human need is to discover one's own

inner reality through the cultivation of symbolic life 

and to live in active, dynamic contact with the 

collective unconscious and the Self. This makes it 

possible to draw on the enormous resources and wisdom 

of ages that lie in the collective psyche. 



A person whose entire existence is limited to the 

hylotropic mode, even if free from manifest clinical 

symptoms and thus mentally healthy from the point of 

view of traditional psychiatry, is cut off from these 

inner resources and incapable of drawing on them. This 

leads to chronic frustration of higher transcendental 

needs and a sense of lack of fulfillment. Holotropic 

experiences encountered in the process of in-depth 

self-exploration have intrinsic healing potential Those

that are difficult and painful in nature -- if completed 

and well-integrated -- seem to eliminate sources of 

disturbing emotions and tensions that would otherwise 

interfere with everyday life. Ecstatic and unitive 

holotropic experiences then remove the sense of 

alienation, create feelings of belonging, infuse the 

individual with strength, zest, and optimism, and enhance 

self-esteem. They cleanse the senses and open them for 

the perception of the extraordinary richness, beauty, and 

mystery of existence. The experience of fundamental 

oneness with the rest of creation increases the 

tolerance and patience toward others, lowers the level of

aggression, and improves the capacity for synergy and 

cooperation.



The discovery of the hidden aspects of reality and of 

the challenges associated with them adds fascinating 

new dimensions to existence. It makes one's life much 

richer and more interesting and frees some of the 

energies that have been previously tied up in various 

quixotic ambitious endeavors and directs them to the 

adventure of self-discovery. Repeated experiences of the 

transpersonal domain can have a profound impact on the 

individual involved. They tend to dissolve the narrow and

limited perspective characterizing the average 

Westerner and make one see the problems of everyday 

life from a cosmic perspective.



Some of the experiences encountered during the inner 

quest have such an extreme intensity that they change 

the individual's baseline for the experience of life 

and the concept of what one can endure, cope with, and 

integrate. In addition to actual healing that occurs in 

the process, this drastic change of perspective, context, and

baseline for evaluation of one's life experience can 

represent an important asset in life and transform the 

quality of everyday existence.



In view of these facts, the increase of interest in 

spirituality and in inner quest is certainly one of the

few hopeful developments in our troubled world. If this 

trend continues, inner transformation of humanity could 

become a major force in averting the present suicidal 

trend and the global catastrophe toward which the world

seems to be moving at a frightening pace. The rapidly 

processing convergence between the new science and the 

mystical traditions of perennial philosophy offers an 

exciting perspective of a future comprehensive 

worldview that will heal the gap between scientific 

research and spiritual quest. Such an encompassing new 

paradigm could become an important catalyst in the 

evolution of consciousness that seems to be a critical 

condition for the survival of life on this planet. 

57 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.57
Shows a lot of Integrity and Heart! Thanks for sharing that (Shakti Das, 7/20/99 12:59:52 PM)

58 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.58
Bob Cox (crotalus, 7/25/99 12:27:57 PM)

RE: <30> & <40> More Pictures of the Kagyu Mila Gura 

Tibetan Buddhist Stupa

59 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.59
fran dukehart (frankensense, 8/21/99 9:53:44 PM)

Thank you, Bob for the Stan Grof post! Appreciatively, Fran

60 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.60
Bob Cox (crotalus, 8/22/99 12:15:25 AM)

Aye - Stan's the Man. Talk about somebody into pranyama...that's 

Grof.

61 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.61
kevin wood (sahaj, 8/22/99 7:31:20 PM)

Who is Stan Graf?

62 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.62
Bob Cox (crotalus, 8/22/99 9:03:31 PM)

From Grof's Website:



STANISLAV GROF, M.D., PH.D., is

a psychiatrist with over forty years experience

of research into non-ordinary states of

consciousness induced by psychedelic

substances and various non-drug techniques

such as Holotropic BreathworkTM. He was

born in Prague, Czechoslovakia, where he also

received his scientific training - an M.D. degree

from the Charles University School of Medicine

and a Ph.D. from the Czechoslovakian

Academy of Sciences.



Dr. Grof's early research in the clinical uses of

psychoactive drugs was conducted at the

Psychiatric Research Institute in Prague, where

he was Principal Investigator of a program

systematically exploring the heuristic and

therapeutic potential of LSD and other

psychedelic substances. In 1967, he was invited

as Clinical and Research Fellow to the Johns

Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD. After

completion of this two-year fellowship he

stayed in the U.S. and continued his research as

Chief of Psychiatric Research at the Maryland

Psychiatric Research Center and as Assistant

Professor of Psychiatry at the Henry Phipps

Clinic of Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore,

MD. In 1973, Dr. Grof was invited to the Esalen

Institute, Big Sur, California, where he lived

until 1987 as Scholar-in-Residence writing,

giving seminars, lecturing and developing

Holotropic BreathworkTM with his wife

Christina Grof. He also served on the Board of

Trustees of the Esalen Institute.



He was the founding president of the

International Transpersonal Association (ITA).

In this role, he has organized large

international conferences in the U.S., the

former Czechoslovakia, India, Australia, and

Brazil. At present, he lives in Mill Valley,

California, conducting training seminars for

professionals in Holotropic BreathworkTM and

transpersonal psychology and writing books. He

also is Professor of Psychology at the California

Institute of Integral Studies (CIIS) and gives

lectures and seminars worldwide.



He has published over 100 articles in

professional journals. His books include: The

Holotropic Mind; Realms of the Human

Unconscious; The Human Encounter with

Death (written with Joan Halifax); LSD

Psychotherapy; Beyond the Brain; The

Adventure of Self-Discovery; The Books of the

Dead; Beyond Death; and The Stormy Search

for the Self (the last two written with Christina

Grof). He also edited the books Ancient Wisdom

and Modern Science; Human Survival and

Consciousness Evolution; and Spiritual

Emergency (the last with Christina Grof). His

newest book, The Cosmic Game, will be

released in early 1998. 





If you ever get the opportunity to do a holotropics 

workshop, do not pass it up.

63 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.63
Bob Cox (crotalus, 8/22/99 9:09:57 PM)

Kevin - see <52> re Grof also. Needless to say (but I'll say 

it anyway), Grof is a tad outside the mainstream of Western

medicine for the mind.

64 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.64
A GREAT Yoga site (YogaSuz, 10/11/99 10:41:05 AM)

Hi all,



I've been noodling around the web lately. I found a 

general site for India-related links called 

www.123India.com, which is a lot like Yahoo only for India. There I've found several yoga 

sites that I hadn't found through web searches using US

search engines.



Following the yoga category links, I found this site:



http://gallery.uunet.be/Rammanu/index.htm



by a Dutch person named Ananda. 



The site is great. It has descriptions of the yoga texts, 

various branches of yoga, has bios of different yogis, and 

recommendations of texts to read. Ananda is quite good at

the asanas (yoga poses). Check out his asana pics!



One note about the site, at first I didn't realize how 

big the site was. I was skipping some of the links. I found

it helpful to jump back to the Contents page to see 

what I had missed.

65 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.65
kevin wood (sahaj, 10/11/99 10:22:30 PM)

Love that garbapindasana with the glasses on...

66 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.66
(Erased) (sahaj, 10/12/99 6:17:31 PM)

(Erased by sahaj at Oct 12 1999  6:18PM)

67 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.67
kevin wood (sahaj, 10/12/99 6:19:20 PM)

Why doesn't the image come up on the post,

Did I not define the boarders or something?

68 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.68
Bob Cox (tympanachus cupido, 10/12/99 7:15:56 PM)

The image is on the page at 

http://gallery.uunet.be/Rammanu/images/thumbnails/gp.ht

m

You have to copy out the image location (right mouse 

button selection) by placing the cursor over the pic 

yielding



http://gallery.uunet.be/Rammanu/images/thumbnails/Garbh

a_Pindasana.jpg

and place it into the img tag like next (without opening 

and closing <>)



img src="http://gallery.uunet.be/Rammanu/images/thumbnails/Garbha_Pindasana.jpg" 

width=264 height=259 alt="courtesy ananda"







height and width specs allow browser to set aside the 

space and continue laying down text as pic loads - they 

can be found from View Page Info on Nutscrape

69 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.69
(Erased) (sahaj, 10/13/99 12:57:01 AM)

(Erased by sahaj at Oct 13 1999 12:58AM)

70 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.70
got it that time.. Thanks Bob (sahaj, 10/13/99 12:58:35 AM)

71 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.71
SuZett Estell (suz coyote, 2/28/00 11:18:40 PM)

This timely alert just in from Rama Berch (Yoga Alliance).



This is one reason why well meaning people feel that 

standardization and certification cannot be stopped.  How

do we meet this threat without compromising freedom?  Any

ideas?  Please bring them over to the Yoga Freedom forum. 



Dear SuZett - I thought you might want to see this. I 

posted it on esutra as well. I'd love to hear your 

comments.  Thanks!





There is a bill before the State Senate in Pennsylvania. 

You can look at the text of it at this address:

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/BI/BT/1999/0/SB122

0P1543.HTM

Here are some brief excerpts from the bill:



"Individuals who meet and maintain certain standards of 

competence and training defined in this act may provide

services to the public…"



Definitions include:

"'Movement education.'  The art and science of teaching 

self-awareness and habitual movement patterns by 

verbally and physically guiding the student in the 

self-discovery of alternative and improved postures, 

coordination and choices of behavior."



"There is hereby created a board to be known as the State

Board of Somatic Practices, Massage Therapy and 

Reflexology…"



"License required… it shall be unlawful for any person to 

hold himself or herself out to others as a somatic 

practitioner… unless the person has met

the educational requirements of this act and holds a 

current… license issued in accordance with the provisions

of this act. Licensure shall be granted separately in two

areas:

 (1)  Somatic practices and massage therapy.

 (2)  Reflexology."



Violations:  "A person commits a violation of this section 

if that person holds himself or herself out to others 

as a somatic practitioner… and adopts or uses any title 

or description, including… somatic therapist, body therapist, 

body worker…, touch therapist or any derivative of those 

terms and their related abbreviations, which implies 

directly or indirectly that somatic practices services… 

are being provided."



Grandfathering:  All initial applicants who are 

professional practitioners of somatic practices… who meet

the qualifications described in this act

upon the effective date of this act shall be licensed 

by the board as soon as possible, subject to the 

following:

…active practitioners in the profession of somatic 

practices and massage therapy who have been in active, 

continuous practice for two or more years

immediately preceding the effective date of this act 

shall have two years… to fulfill the requirements of 150 hours 

of instruction in the field of somatic practices or 

massage therapy. 



National Certification Examination Waiver:  "The hours of 

instruction… shall be waived in the case of an active 

practitioner who has passed a

national certification examination approved by the 

board and maintained the certification.  



Certification/Diploma Waiver:  "The hours of instruction… shall

be waived in the case of an active practitioner who 

possesses current certification or a diploma from a 

program approved by the board."





I'd love to hear your feedback!  Thanks,



Namaste,



Rama

72 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.72
Future Portending? (Shakti Das, 2/29/00 10:19:25 AM)

Yes this is definitely the direction that big brother 

and over regulation will take (in the name of protecting" 

it's citizens. If it doesn't cover yoga now, it will. Can you

see the headlines in the future:



An Indian national (and perhaps illegal alien) Patabi Jois, a

well known India yoga teacher was busted today outside 

a fashionable New York Yoga Center for teaching yoga 

without a license. PAtabi Jois holds no licenses or 

certification degrees from any American agency or state

and when asked why he thought he was qualified to teach

yoga, he replied; "God made me do it!" He is now being held 

without bail at Belleville State Hospital for teh 

criminally insane awaiting deporattion hearings."



or



"A raid at an well known uptown acupuncture studio turned

up one Kuan Yin Shea, a 27 year old Qi Gong teacher who was 

running a class on therapeutic Chi Gong. She was booked 

on two counts of somatic teaching without a license as 

well as billed for back taxes (and interest) on failure to 

buy such a license."



"Police again raided "the International Yoga Academy" in 

downtown Podunk today arresting Ananda Muni Chandra, a 94 

year old ascetic and meditation teacher who teaches 

meditation and yoga. Chandra -- who can not write or read 

English, has been taped recorded many times indicating 

the somatic benefits of meditation which is in direct 

conflict with state laws unless licensed to do so."



"Dangerous Yoga Teacher Apprehended"



John Smith of Salt Lake City, was apprehended today (found 

meditating in a tree). He was sentenced and fined today for

failure to renew his membership in the "Yoga Alliance" for 

year 2003. Failure to renew in the Alliance, is grounds for 

automatic de-certification, while state law requires 

National Certification or the necessity to take a state

run test. In addition it seems that Smith, did not take his

mandatory yearly teacher competency test, yearly anatomy 

refresher course, and yearly approved certified yoga 

skills upgrade course in order to renew his license. In 

addition new state law requires all yoga teachers to 

carry a minimum two million dollars of liability 

insurance (sold through the Yoga Alliance) which Smith lost

when he was kicked out of the alliance.



Smith said; 'I broke my ankle when I was run over by a 

bus, and was not able to take the upgrade classes. I am a 

renunciate and am not able to pay for the continuing 

education classes, the yoga alliance membership, the 

liability insurance, the state licenses, the city business 

licenses, the state taxes, city taxes, and federal taxes. I am 

in the streets.'



The yoga alliance was contacted and said; "Smith's case is 

not unusual but in an attempt to protect the public 

from questionable teachers, we feel that Smith's level of

competency to be below that required by our members in 

good standing since he has not completed his continuing

education requirements. Since he is not currently a 

member in the alliance, we will allow him to be 

re-certified only when he completes the new and vastly 

superior current full course regimen (which has been 

deemed vastly improved and superior to the one that 

Smith completed ten years ago (of course after he pays 

his re-initiation fees). A yoga Alliance spokesperson was 

quoted in saying; 'you know. all these old yoga teachers 

who haven't cvompleted the new and improved level 12dz 

training are really time bombs waiting to go off'.



Smith said that given his current legal difficulties 

and obligations he could not qualify for the $10,000 bank loan that 

would be required."      

  

YPI (Yoga Press Internal)

73 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.73
Well Known Yoga Boutique Busted! (Shakti Das, 2/29/00 12:24:57 PM)

FUTURE SCENARIO ?



"Under Cover Cop Nets 30!"



George Goode, working undercover for the yoga police 

undercover task force, while disguised in leotards as an 

aspiring yoga student in dire need of losing weight at 

the "Yoga Boutique Fountain of Youth Health Spa" recorded 

yoga teacher, Smart Alec Smoothy, say and this will relieve

the pain in the pelvic region quickly signaled his 

cohorts (via his hidden radio transmitter) while police 

knocked down the door to arrest Smoothy and the 

students. 



Smoothy was booked on seven counts in violation of the 

somatic/yoga control act of 2004 including indecent language and 

obscenity (he mentioned the devil (kundalini) three times,overt

familiarity and friendliness toward his students (the 

control act expressly states that the Yoga teacher 

should not socialize with students), sexual harassment (

Smoothy made reference to the pelvis and genitals on 

more than two occasions), practising medicine without a 

license (Smoothy was recorded as saying that yoga was 

good for you), illegal possession of medicinal apparatus 

and conspiracy to sell them (Smoothy's boutique was 

selling neti pots, neti strings, and other yoga 

paranphernalia purported to increase health), selling yoga 

books with dangerous procedures that were not approved 

by the new Universal Yoga Alliance), and conspiracy to 

defraud and demean legitimate and approved yoga 

procedures (A new law established to protect "safe" and "good" 

practices). 



The Universal Yoga Alliance (based in Berlin) immediately 

withdrew Smoothy's credentials for life and condemned 

him and the Boutique (which now has been boarded up as a 

public health menace). 



What was unusual about this Raid of the Yoga 

under-cover task force was that the students were also 

charged with procurement and felonious conspiracy to 

create a misdemeanor under the new state wide statutes 

that took effect last Month. Officer Goode was quoted in 

his inscrupulous logic; "After all we bust those customers 

who seek out prostitutes, not just the prostitutes. We bust

those who buy and possess stolen goods, not just the 

burglar. Why not extend that so we can be more 

preventative? There would never be illegal yoga teachers 

if there were not customers asking for it, right? By the 

fact that these people exist at all seeking out 

un-conventional teachers and unapproved methods in 

itself creates the same grounds in which the basis of 

the crime is created. In this way we hope to be  

pre-emptive rather than just treating the symptoms".    



Officer Goode will be receiving the Mayor's Medal of 

Valour at a grand feast and celebration Tuesday evening."



YPI

74 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.74
Media Flash (Shakti Das, 2/29/00 1:11:29 PM)

"This just in, Smoothy and the students were charged the 

morning after the daring raid with additional counts of

personal endangerment. Officer Goode was found lauding 

his own actions by saying: 'I'm sick and tired of tax 

payer's monies going toward such wasteful activities 

such as paying the emergency medical costs of those who

hurt themselves doing yoga. Government was never designed

for such absurdities and I am one person who is out to 

stop it.'



Smoothy (who was also charged with seven other counts 

from yesterday's raid) is being held without bail. When 

asked if the denial of bail was unconstitutional, Officer

Goode replied, 'It has been standard practice since the 

nineties to deny bail to those charged with crimes that

will mandate a life sentence. In this case, although 

neither of the crimes in themselves is severe enough to

carry a large sentence even when they are added 

together, they never-the-less constitute more than three 

separate counts. In this state three strikes and your out!. 

That means you will never be paroled but rather it 

becomes a life sentence. Especially noteworthy is that 

these specific crimes which threaten personal bodily 

injury and public health by advocating such universally

unsafe and authoritatively condemned procedures and 

methods can be rightfully classified as violent crimes. 

Smoothy should have known better, but did not heed past 

warnings. He is a menace and we should throw the book at 

him!'



This is not Smoothy's first offense, i.e., he has a prior for 

riding his motorcycle without a helmet on more than 

occasion. Goode indicated that anybody with such a 

criminal record should never have been issued a Yoga 

Teacher's License in the first place, adding that all 

applicants for YT licenses should first have a thorough

FBI check and show financial solvency as well! Room does 

not permit us to reprint Goode's entire and extensive 

statement in the public interest."

75 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.75
I can't wait for the Fox special (YogaSuz, 2/29/00 2:38:07 PM)

76 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.76
Yeah - kuhl rant (tympanachus cupido, 2/29/00 9:40:09 PM)

77 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.77
Work it Donny!!! (sahaj, 3/1/00 12:05:06 AM)

78 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.78
Brad (ashtangaboy, 3/1/00 9:56:33 AM)

     Hey all,



  Very juicy discussion.  I don't know what is really 

going on with the uniform certification stuff.  Who is 

protecting who from who?  



   How did this get started in the first place?  Is yoga 

just becoming to popular?  I think it is nothing but 

greed, but I could be wrong.

79 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.79
Greed/Power (sue6, 3/1/00 11:05:42 AM)

Brad...



Check out www.yogafreedom.org for more info on the whole certification thing.  



Donny...cool posts.  



Namaste,

Sue

80 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.80
(littlespacegirl, 3/1/00 3:48:35 PM)

There is no stopping the total freedom vs. authoritarian 

control struggle in anythingworthwhile.

81 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.81
kevin wood (sahaj, 3/2/00 11:42:04 AM)

Freedom, unfought for, is soon lost.

Thomas Jefferson

82 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.82
News from the real world... (ksalo, 3/3/00 2:31:06 AM)

Pattabhi Jois was scheduled to give a workshop in 

Australia, but Australia reclined his visa application...

83 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.83
Brad (ashtangaboy, 3/3/00 11:28:20 AM)

        Thanks sue.  It looks like a neat site.  I think I 

undererstand the problem a little better now.  I think it

has a lot to do with fear.  





     This will be a problem that needs to be addressed, 

but I don't think a centralized solution is the best.  I 

don't know what would be.  

     I think terms like government can be misleading.  

Think about it.  Since when has our government at the 

federal level  been united on any single issue.  



     Who is the government.  Elected and appointed 

officials from we the people.  



     I will be the first to say that I am just as 

responsible as anyone else for all freedoms that are 

lost.  With freedoms there comes duties.  I can not say 

that I have been fullfilling my duties the way I should

be.  



     I don't even know my full rights as a citizen, even 

though I have taken a few government courses.  I think I 

will learn a little more about the constitution.  I 

understand that it is not perfect-- In the beginning it

ignored our african brothers and sisters and also 

ignored all women. 



   However,we as humans have come a long way.  Wasn't there

a king that cut off the head if his wife because she 

could not give  birth to a boy.   



    Sorry for the poorly oraganized structure, but I 

sometimes feel guilty for being a male.  All the bullshit

you ladies have to put up with.  Can you tell I am a 

mama's boy?



  Love,



  Brad

84 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.84
Politics - The Freedom Killer (suz coyote, 3/3/00 4:58:14 PM)

I have learned some interesting lessons in putting 

together the Yoga Freedom site.  One big one is that 

people are often so concerned with how they will be 

perceived that they'll say "Oh, yes, I am a believer in 

freedom, but don't quote me on that."  



Its enough to make me pull my hair out!  Geeze...The 

willingness to at least admit in public that freedom is

important is fundamental.  It doesn't really bother me 

when people disagree with me on an issue.  But, I have a 

tough time understanding how so-called yogis can allow 

their tongues to be held hostage by a group of yoga 

teachers in California (as an example) or anywhere else.  The

answer I get when I inquire as to why someone doesn't 

want to endorse freedom in yoga is, "Well, the politics, you 

know."  



It seems to me that the starting place for doing one's 

part to maintaining freedom is to have the courage to 

say, "Yes, freedom is worth having and I don't don't care who

might not like it that I believe this way."  [BTW, a thousand 

kudos to those of you freedom lovers who have made the 

public commitment to freedom in yoga - the outcome may 

not be in our hands, but at least we know who we are and 

what is important.]



Its a wonder to me that we're all not still having tea 

time, playing cricket and singing "Hail to the Queen," in the 

US. If our forefathers and mothers had not be so freedom 

minded, especially as concerns religion, it is doubtful if 

any of us would be practicing yoga today.  Where would we

have been had they said, "I can't sign the Declaration of 

Independence, it's, you know, the politics, man."



Now granted, this sounds very judgmental on my part, but 

freedom isn't a freebie.  Yoga Freedom didn't ask anyone 

for anything really, other than a public statement that 

standardization and licensing are not necessarily the 

way to go.  Heck, we didn't even ask that.  Rama joined and 

she's the president of Yoga Alliance!  I get letters from

people who love the site, but won't sign on as 

associations - "Politics," you know.  



Bobby says I'm being too rigid, but I honestly have a 

difficult time respecting people who cannot even stick 

up for freedom while the cost is minimal!  All that does 

is make the eventual cost much higher and the odds of 

successfully fending off attacks on freedom much lower.



I expect that the great "unwashed masses" will always be 

more interested in security than freedom, but yogis?



In the US, we have this huge war on [some] drugs, that has 

resulted in the complete flogging our our bill of 

rights, huge law enforcement and prison industries, and 

incarceration of people who are non-violent - the largest

percentage in any industrialized country.  We got here 

because we allowed our mouths to be taped shut by Nancy

Reagan's "Just Say No" campaign.  In reality, it was more of a "

Just Keep Your Damn Mount Shut If You Know What's Good 

For You," or "We D.A.R.E. You to Say a Work Against our Methods" 

campaign.  



So, "Jimmy," the 17-year old kid down the street who foolishly  sold 

a few OZ's of pot to his friends and got busted, gets to 

spend years of his life in a violent, human-spirit 

busting prison because, "Well, its the politics, man, I can't 

really speak out against our drug laws, because it might 

hurt my personal _________" [fill in the blank].  



Well the Jimmy's are getting out some day and we can 

expect then to be pissed. THEY know the value of freedom, 

at any rate, and the collective "we" who were too concerned 

with politics to say, "this is wrong" pretty much deserve 

what old Jimmy and the boys (and girls) bring our way.



People have actually written me with complex arguments 

with all the details about how they can probably get 

grandfathered into a standard yoga-teacher 

certification so they're not personally worried.  Well, gee. 

Good for them.  They're not Jimmys, I guess, so Jimmy doesn't

matter.



Well, Yeshua was crucified by the same sort of politics



SuZ

85 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.85
(Erased) (suz coyote, 3/3/00 11:42:37 PM)

(Erased by suz coyote at Mar  3 2000 11:43PM)

86 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.86
Whew! What a rant... (suz coyote, 3/3/00 11:44:36 PM)

Must be this flu I have.  Maybe I should erase it...the 

politics, you know?

87 of 87 Yoga Conference.21.87
Brad (ashtangaboy, 3/4/00 10:18:17 AM)

  Hey Suz.

    If you want.  I think it should stay.  It reads a 

little dark, but thats life.  Erase it  if you want.  There 

are a few posts of mine in the tantra section that I 

would like to erase now.  



To all

    Yeah, if there is anything that I type and it sounds 

really dumb, please let me know.  I am not the best at the 

keyboard.  I will try to say something like Its raining 

outside, but it comes out as It's a sunny day or 

something.  Very ambiguous.  





have a joyful day. 

  Brad